The Thread Where We Debate About Healthcare in America

[RavinDave]

Why do we even have snail mail. Screw reorganization they need to go the way of the dodo bird

Let UPS, FedEx and Amazon bid on buying out the USPS.

 

[0nelilreb]

Looks like the pros outweigh the cons for the population. Again, many countries allow people to buy supplements for faster access for routine or elective issues. I don't know what our population or governing style has anything to do with anything.

I keep seeing excuses why this would be universally bad, without anything to back it up but "i could possibly be inconvenienced" based on the triage of my ailment.

Because we have a government style that taxes the crap out of everything it sees , has a history of running horrible programs with huge deficits , poor quality and begging for greater funding amounts each and every year . Add this to our percentage of the population that doesn’t pay taxes in and the fact that we will inevitably include illegals into the “ health care for all “ system and you have your answer .

 

[NurseGoodVol]

This is the fear you've been told to have, in reality - that's not the case at all. The US healthcare system isn't even close to being "better" than those of our technologically advanced peers. To put it in perspective, we're buying a Chevy at Ferrari prices.

This idea that the US healthcare system is somehow superior is nothing more than a narrative sold to you by insurance companies through the mouths of their bought and paid for politicians... And it gets LAPPED up.

Educate yourself before regurgitating what you've been told to believe.

I'd probably take the word of my friends from AU, Canada, England and France first. They don't have an agenda.

 

[Septic]

I'd probably take the word of my friends from AU, Canada, England and France first. They don't have an agenda.

I have friends in Canada and Australia, they love their healthcare system and just shake their heads at the absurdity of ours. They can't fathom how an illness could leave them financially ruined, they admit it's not perfect but are blown away about how up our system is.

 

[Septic]

Because we have a government style that taxes the crap out of everything it sees , has a history of running horrible programs with huge deficits , poor quality and begging for greater funding amounts each and every year . Add this to our percentage of the population that doesn’t pay taxes in and the fact that we will inevitably include illegals into the “ health care for all “ system and you have your answer .

The slippery slope argument, gotcha.

 

[volfanhill]

Looks like the pros outweigh the cons for the population. Again, many countries allow people to buy supplements for faster access for routine or elective issues. I don't know what our population or governing style has anything to do with anything.

I keep seeing excuses why this would be universally bad, without anything to back it up but "i could possibly be inconvenienced" based on the triage of my ailment.

The bad is lack of innovation

 

[LouderVol]

Can you give me an example of just one program that the federal government took over or is in charge of , where the the quality went up , or didn’t get worse and the cost went down or didn’t go up ? Just one in our entire history .

Siap, but bump/did this get answered. I am playing catch up.

 

[LouderVol]

This is one of the reasons my wife is trying to get out of health care. The constant stress that she has felt from knowing that a disgruntled family could possibly bring a frivolous lawsuit against her has been overwhelming at times. One of her co-workers who had a patient die nearly 3 years before had to go to a review board to fight for her job because some sleaze bag lawyer had gotten ahold of them before the 3 year statute limitations was up. She had nothing wrong and it was proven so, but her livelihood was at risk and that was unnecessary toll on her psyche and made her rethink her profession.

The number one reason health care costs in this country are so high is because of all the red tape. The red tape is because of all the lawyers, and the government. But dont worry more of it will fix it.

 

[LouderVol]

Demographics, geography, governmental system, religion, race, or lifestyle have nothing to do with providing access the entirety of your population. It also has nothing to do with charging 20x more for a medication that is available worldwide at much more affordable rates.

Wait what? How does having far more people, far more area, far more possible diseases NOT affect access of care?

 

[0nelilreb]

Siap, but bump/did this get answered. I am playing catch up.

Yes , with a great example . The TVA .

 

[0nelilreb]

The slippery slope argument, gotcha.

You say ( subjectively) that it’s a slipper slope . I say it’s just cold hard facts backed up by our history . Tomato - Potato

 

[LouderVol]

The TVA. They did a pretty good job diminishing flood damage, promoting agriculture and electrifying the South. It's still a government agency and does a good job today.

I wouldnt call TVA efficient. And it's not hard to be "better" than nothing when the nothing includes floods.

It also recieves no federal funding.

So if you can come up with a healthcare system that is better than the medical void in America and doesnt cost the tax payers a dime I would say you win this point.

 

[0nelilreb]

I wouldnt call TVA efficient. And it's not hard to be "better" than nothing when the nothing includes floods.

It also recieves no federal funding.

So if you can come up with a healthcare that is better than the medical void in America and doesnt cost the tax payers a dime I would say you win this point.

You should go back and read through the posts . The TVA is set up on a corporate model . It’s a very rare program that the government set up and then backed away from to let it stand on its own .

Edit : keep in mind that’s it’s the only program anyone can think of like it , where a government set up a program different from any other its set up . Nobody believes the government would set up health care this way .

 

[LouderVol]

That has nothing to do with why our healthcare is so expensive, exclusive, and doesn’t prioritize patients.

Prioritizes patients until it completely stops. QALY.
In the UK’s health system, rationing isn’t a dirty word
Easy to keep costs low when you tell people we wont spend money on you. I bet about half the active PF board would suffer under that system.
Or if you dont mind telling patients they CANT try to save their son.

Yeah they care about the people......
All they have done is boiled down the system to something with a nicer varnish, but once you get past that it's the same crap.

Cause oh yeah the over promise and under perform, yet you only quote the promises
Britain's Version Of 'Medicare For All' Is Struggling With Long Waits For Care
250000 waiting 6 months for care. This isnt an isolated mess up. Their cancer treatment comes in like crap compared to ours.

And oh yeah it's so affordable the government has had to bail it out at least twice in my life time. And oh yeah despite being "free" for the british what they spend per person continues to go up. The first step towards fixing the UK’s health care system is admitting it’s broken

 

[82_VOL_83]

I don't know. People would have more income in their pockets if they were getting ass raped by United Healthcare, BCBS, Humana etc. Substituting a small tax increase for universal healthcare that would largely offset out of pocket premiums seems to work elsewhere. I refuse to believe the worlds largest economy can't figure out what most of the world already has.

I never said I had an answer for it, just that other countries have figured out how to do it provide better care for less. I get that it's a hard pill to swallow when one has been raised to believe that 'murica has it all figured out.

Small???? Wtf are you calling small? My wife has maxed out her out of pocket this year for much much less than 10% of her salary. Universal Medicare like one of those chithole medical systems you are touting would cut a HUGE chunk out of her paycheck, more than 10% even adding current premiums back into her salary. Our crappy medical system in W KY saved her life this year because UHC basically took a doc knows best approach with her. With socialized medicine she wouldn't be here. Sorry, but you can take your flippant approach to this and shove it.

 

[82_VOL_83]

Wait what? How does having far more people, far more area, far more possible diseases NOT affect access of care?

And remind me, what portion of our population doesn't have access? Isn't one of the biggest excuses that the ERs are CLOGGED with people that are uninsured? But wait, they can't be in the ER without insurance right? What people don't have access to is free total coverage from cradle to grave. Those that don't have insurance now but use the ER are the same that won't be paying a damn dime for 100% coverage under universal medicare. But what is the excuse going to be when these people are denied care because of access issues like they are in the fabulous UK system? If you don't pay into the system, you don't count I guess.

 

[OHvol40]

Prioritizes patients until it completely stops. QALY.
In the UK’s health system, rationing isn’t a dirty word
Easy to keep costs low when you tell people we wont spend money on you. I bet about half the active PF board would suffer under that system.
Or if you dont mind telling patients they CANT try to save their son.

Yeah they care about the people......
All they have done is boiled down the system to something with a nicer varnish, but once you get past that it's the same crap.

Cause oh yeah the over promise and under perform, yet you only quote the promises
Britain's Version Of 'Medicare For All' Is Struggling With Long Waits For Care
250000 waiting 6 months for care. This isnt an isolated mess up. Their cancer treatment comes in like crap compared to ours.

And oh yeah it's so affordable the government has had to bail it out at least twice in my life time. And oh yeah despite being "free" for the british what they spend per person continues to go up. The first step towards fixing the UK’s health care system is admitting it’s broken

That is a whole lot of window dressing just to avoid the fact that we still pay double what any other country on earth does. People, real people I see daily, choose between insulin and food on a regular basis. Nowhere else in the developed world does that happen.

 

[NEO]

You should go back and read through the posts . The TVA is set up on a corporate model . It’s a very rare program that the government set up and then backed away from to let it stand on its own .

Edit : keep in mind that’s it’s the only program anyone can think of like it , where a government set up a program different from any other its set up . Nobody believes the government would set up health care this way .

One thing is for certain, nobody buries the evidence on the making of a nuclear bomb better than they do.

 

[Septic]

Small???? Wtf are you calling small? My wife has maxed out her out of pocket this year for much much less than 10% of her salary. Universal Medicare like one of those chithole medical systems you are touting would cut a HUGE chunk out of her paycheck, more than 10% even adding current premiums back into her salary. Our crappy medical system in W KY saved her life this year because UHC basically took a doc knows best approach with her. With socialized medicine she wouldn't be here. Sorry, but you can take your flippant approach to this and shove it.

So her max out of pocket deductible was less than 10% of her salary? Great. What about adding the cost of the insurance to that? I spend roughly $8,500 a year on the cost of each of my employees health insurance, I would gladly pay them as ordinary pay to offset the cost of universal health coverage 'tax'. That's more than 10% of most of their salarys and they wouldn't have any co-pays or deductibles. Are you stating that the premium, whether you pay it or not, plus the max out of pocket deductible is less than 10% of her income? That'd be about $11k individually for my ee's and about $16k for family's, give or take, depending on the plan.

At any rate, I'm not 'touting' anything except pointing out that the data supports quality care is possible through universal care. Data isn't anecdotal or 'flippant'. You're conflating my singular point with an argument I've not made.

 

[LouderVol]

Let UPS, FedEx and Amazon bid on buying out the USPS.

No way they take it. USPS went under with federal subsidies. No way for them to make the current method work.

At best your looking at some type of "PO Box" only where you have to go to them, or delivery is only once a week or so. And costs will still go up.

 

[LouderVol]

The slippery slope argument, gotcha.

Lol. Is it the slippery slope argument when you are already at the bottom of the hill covered in 24 trillion dollars worth of mud from more alphabet agencies than Dr. Seuss could come with?

It's just stating facts at this point.

 

[Purple Tiger]

The number one reason health care costs in this country are so high is because of all the red tape. The red tape is because of all the lawyers, and the government. But dont worry more of it will fix it.

Profit taking is the #1 reason.

 

[Rickyvol77]

Profit taking is the #1 reason.

Actually if governmental forced regulations didn’t exist, doctors and hospitals and insurance companies could negotiate and offer cheaper prices for competition. And even make house calls again.

 

[LouderVol]

See, you're trying to rationalize using subjective terminology. I've already cited data that shows our access, efficacy, efficiency, cost and outcomes are nearly last when compared to our technological peers. So tell me what makes the U.S. doctors, nurses, methods and equipment "better" here than say the AU or UK?

You can't.

Your narrative of American exceptionalism for "da best" healthcare simply doesn't hold water. Given we pay twice as much for outcomes that are similar or lagging our international peers should be infuriating.

Not at all. I see most post got lost in the shuffle yesterday. Not sure if its hiding over in the KJU thread still or not.

The British have at any point 250,000 people waiting more than 6 months for care. With around 100000 at 9 months. The NIHS standard for care is 52 days. Meaning if you get your potentially life threatening care in 52 days time, they consider that a success. That wouldnt float in America and it's easy to see why they are more "successful" when they use metrics like that.

Despite being "free" for the British after a 40% income tax over 45k, compared to Americas whopping 22%, the amount spent on healthcare over there keeps going up. Why would costs go up if the government provides everything?

NIHS has been bailed out at least twice and is still facing massive shortages all over the place with nurses, doctors, and equipment.

And it's no wonder they can keep costs down when they set a cap on services provided. It typically tops out around 30k. You need to look into the QALY system they have and then apply it to America. With our underlying health issues we would have a ton more people getting left out than they do. I doubt America accepts something like that. Because it truly does set a price on human life.

The first step towards fixing the UK’s health care system is admitting it’s broken
I had a couple more links in my OP. If anyone would actually like to read up on it let me know. If you want to sit there with your head in the sand please continue.


Ok now my OP is here. Nvm.

 

[LouderVol]

That is a whole lot of window dressing just to avoid the fact that we still pay double what any other country on earth does. People, real people I see daily, choose between insulin and food on a regular basis. Nowhere else in the developed world does that happen.

46k income tax
America 22%
British 40%

Remind me who is paying double?