The Thread Where We Debate About Healthcare in America

[LouderVol]

That is a whole lot of window dressing just to avoid the fact that we still pay double what any other country on earth does. People, real people I see daily, choose between insulin and food on a regular basis. Nowhere else in the developed world does that happen.

Also window dressing is that 250000 have to wait 6 months? I thought you said they care about people?

And you skipped over the fact that they continue to personally pay more and more on their free healthcare.

The articles also mention that among life threatening situations they have a markedly lower survival rate. About 10% average across the board. So yeah you can get your sniffle fixed better over there, but if you need heart surgery you better stay here.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

“Their”

The ACA did more damage to health care than the poor going to the ED.

How do we socialize health care when 44% of Americans pay no federal tax?

Do we add another tax? Like a Medicare tax? How much will this need to be for every American to have health insurance? 10%, 20%, 30%? Do we get to keep our doctor?

Even Bob Beckel (before getting kicked off of 'The Five') admitted that the ACA was all about wealth distribution.

 

[Septic]

46k income tax
America 22%
British 40%

Remind me who is paying double?

?

@$46k USD, they actually pay less at 20%.

You've oversimplified this, the taxed rate - while higher for high/ top income earners in the UK is higher than the US, it's no where close to double (37% vs 45%). And it would appear it's actually lower for the average annual salary earners.

Also, lets not forget to take into account State and property taxes for the U.S. not to mention the health insurance....

 

[Septic]

Also window dressing is that 250000 have to wait 6 months? I thought you said they care about people?

And you skipped over the fact that they continue to personally pay more and more on their free healthcare.

The articles also mention that among life threatening situations they have a markedly lower survival rate. About 10% average across the board. So yeah you can get your sniffle fixed better over there, but if you need heart surgery you better stay here.

The cases are triaged, which would be expected. If you need heart surgery, you get it right away - if you need a knee replacement, you might have to wait six months.

You fear what you don't understand.

 

[LouderVol]

The cases are triaged, which would be expected. If you need heart surgery, you get it right away - if you need a knee replacement, you might have to wait six months.

You fear what you don't understand.

That's not the case for a lot of them. I only have anecdotal stories for this but I will leave them out.
One of the articles covers it better. The way I read it on the heart stuff is if they go in they fix the immediate issue but not the underlying cause. So you may need more heart surgeries later that you wouldnt here in the US. Which brings up a whole lot of other risks.

Everything I have read and heard on QALY is that it's real nice on paper, but a whole lot of people get rounded off that they dont talk about.

 

[82_VOL_83]

So her max out of pocket deductible was less than 10% of her salary? Great. What about adding the cost of the insurance to that? I spend roughly $8,500 a year on the cost of each of my employees health insurance, I would gladly pay them as ordinary pay to offset the cost of universal health coverage 'tax'. That's more than 10% of most of their salarys and they wouldn't have any co-pays or deductibles. Are you stating that the premium, whether you pay it or not, plus the max out of pocket deductible is less than 10% of her income? That'd be about $11k individually for my ee's and about $16k for family's, give or take, depending on the plan.

At any rate, I'm not 'touting' anything except pointing out that the data supports quality care is possible through universal care. Data isn't anecdotal or 'flippant'. You're conflating my singular point with an argument I've not made.

I went into that hoss. You are way out of your league here. You don't know the first thing about what you are talking about. You think there would be a "small" tax increase? You are full of chit. It will be on the order of 25 to 30% after you add the number for the premium back in. There will be copays, there will be out of pocket, there will be deductibles. This chit isn't going to be for free. Are you going to tell someone that hey, we gonna give you a 8.5k raise and then tax you 25 - 30%? You are full of it. The data doesn't support dick. You know as well as I do when you conveniently leave things out of a data set it looks pretty damn good. You are being flippant, you are making the argument I pointed out, you just won't own up to it. You through around numbers as if they are final fact and they aren't. You know it, I know it, most of the other non-socialist posters on here know it. Stop being a jerk to be a jerk. And, it's not just the cost, it's the access. Without the access that we had this year, my wife would be gone. Once again, keep your BS to yourself or quote accurate numbers that include all the data, not just what you want to cherry pick.

 

[Septic]

I went into that hoss. You are way out of your league here. You don't know the first thing about what you are talking about. You think there would be a "small" tax increase? You are full of chit. It will be on the order of 25 to 30% after you add the number for the premium back in. There will be copays, there will be out of pocket, there will be deductibles. This chit isn't going to be for free. Are you going to tell someone that hey, we gonna give you a 8.5k raise and then tax you 25 - 30%? You are full of it. The data doesn't support dick. You know as well as I do when you conveniently leave things out of a data set it looks pretty damn good. You are being flippant, you are making the argument I pointed out, you just won't own up to it. You through around numbers as if they are final fact and they aren't. You know it, I know it, most of the other non-socialist posters on here know it. Stop being a jerk to be a jerk. And, it's not just the cost, it's the access. Without the access that we had this year, my wife would be gone. Once again, keep your BS to yourself or quote accurate numbers that include all the data, not just what you want to cherry pick.

A lot to unpack here.

Goodness, calm down - my argument isn't a personal attack on you.

Nothing is being cherry picked, I'm just pointing out that the data doesn't support your position. As close to home as this may hit, getting emotional over it doesn't change the facts that cost, access and outcomes are either the same or better in other 1st world countries that have universal healthcare.

Feel free to peruse these comparisons and tell me how our system can justify being more than twice as expensive as the comparable country average.

 

[OHvol40]

Also window dressing is that 250000 have to wait 6 months? I thought you said they care about people?

And you skipped over the fact that they continue to personally pay more and more on their free healthcare.

The articles also mention that among life threatening situations they have a markedly lower survival rate. About 10% average across the board. So yeah you can get your sniffle fixed better over there, but if you need heart surgery you better stay here.

The “waiting period” narrative is false. The narrative that major surgery outcomes are better is generally false. Each country has its own strengths and weaknesses, but we pay double and don’t receive double the benefit. Don’t believe me on any of it? Check for yourself...
How does the quality of the U.S. healthcare system compare to other countries? - Peterson-Kaiser Health System Tracker

 

[82_VOL_83]

A lot to unpack here.

Goodness, calm down - my argument isn't a personal attack on you.

Nothing is being cherry picked, I'm just pointing out that the data doesn't support your position. As close to home as this may hit, getting emotional over it doesn't change the facts that cost, access and outcomes are either the same or better in other 1st world countries that have universal healthcare.

Feel free to peruse these comparisons and tell me how our system can justify being more than twice as expensive as the comparable country average.

The data is being manipulated. You choose to believe what you want. I will believe what I want. I am confident that at my age and my income level I will not come out better utilizing any other system. It's easy to makes rash predictions about how good it will be if you are young and healthier. I'm not unhealthy, but age is taking it's toll. Adult onset asthma, old knees and hips, etc. The big issue for me is being shuffled to the back for younger patients that have a "better chance" at full recovery because they will be paying into the system longer. That is what will happen and is what is happening in every country in the world that has universal "paid for by the taxpayers" healthcare. I'm not going to calm down, ever. This is an issue that the left is going to fawk up as best they can. They muddy the water every chance they get. They set up ACA to fail to just create an avenue to further socialize meds. People like you that swallow their doctored data hook line and sinker are doing their work for them.

I got a solution for you. Why not change everyone the same for their healthcare now? Set a limit on what an employer will pat and then let the employees pay the rest, hell, even just add what the employer pays for my HC back into my check and let me pay it all. When people start understanding that their healthcare ain't free now and that it will be even more expensive for less coverage under the gubment plan, see what we get.

 

[Septic]

The data is being manipulated. You choose to believe what you want. I will believe what I want. I am confident that at my age and my income level I will not come out better utilizing any other system. It's easy to makes rash predictions about how good it will be if you are young and healthier. I'm not unhealthy, but age is taking it's toll. Adult onset asthma, old knees and hips, etc. The big issue for me is being shuffled to the back for younger patients that have a "better chance" at full recovery because they will be paying into the system longer. That is what will happen and is what is happening in every country in the world that has universal "paid for by the taxpayers" healthcare. I'm not going to calm down, ever. This is an issue that the left is going to fawk up as best they can. They muddy the water every chance they get. They set up ACA to fail to just create an avenue to further socialize meds. People like you that swallow their doctored data hook line and sinker are doing their work for them.

Oh boy.

Yes, it's all a ruse - perpeterated by all the first world countries on the planet in order dismantle the private healthcare insurance industry here in the U.S.

 

[82_VOL_83]

Oh boy.

Yes, it's all a ruse - perpeterated by all the first world countries on the planet in order dismantle the private healthcare insurance industry here in the U.S.

Like I have stated, if it is a major issue for you and it's better elsewhere, you are free to go. For my family and me right now, it is working as planned and keeping my wife alive. If it's working, don't f with it. Your issue is that you believe the politicians can do things better. Poor misguided fool.

 

[1972 Grad]

The cases are triaged, which would be expected. If you need heart surgery, you get it right away - if you need a knee replacement, you might have to wait six months.

You fear what you don't understand.

Why should a person have to wait 6 months for a knee replacement?

 

[0nelilreb]

The “waiting period” narrative is false. The narrative that major surgery outcomes are better is generally false. Each country has its own strengths and weaknesses, but we pay double and don’t receive double the benefit. Don’t believe me on any of it? Check for yourself...
How does the quality of the U.S. healthcare system compare to other countries? - Peterson-Kaiser Health System Tracker

I don’t know how you rate “ quality vs cost” but I see a lot less deaths in the US ( if I read it correctly ) in that article than compared to other countries . How much is that worth ? Are healthcare costs too expensive ? Of course they are . Do we get double the quality for double the price ? Of course we don’t . Would you pay double the cost of the let’s say UKs system if it kept you alive ? Of course you would .

 

[C-south]

I’m just gonna jump in and throw out a gripe I have about medical billing. I can go to my primary physician for whatever. He checks me out, I have an X-ray, some bloodwork, and maybe some urinalysis. I go to ONE doctor....in the same building all lumped under one healthcare system and I get 3 separate bills. It’s ridiculous. I get billed for the visit, the radiologist part, and the lab work. It should be 1 f***ing bill!

 

[82_VOL_83]

I’m just gonna jump in and throw out a gripe I have about medical billing. I can go to my primary physician for whatever. He checks me out, I have an X-ray, some bloodwork, and maybe some urinalysis. I go to ONE doctor....in the same building all lumped under one healthcare system and I get 3 separate bills. It’s ridiculous. I get billed for the visit, the radiologist part, and the lab work. It should be 1 f***ing bill!

That's insurance regulation, not your healthcare system. Completely deregulate the industry and see what happens. Imagine only having to have "major medical" again. Doctors actually having the ability to charge you as an individual vs. having to charge you because the insurance system is allowed to negotiate rates down so low that they have to charge 10x the cost to actually cover the cost. There are a lot of ways to fix the industry without demolishing it to emulate models that don't work.

 

[Septic]

Why should a person have to wait 6 months for a knee replacement?

If you want to claim exceptionalism, that's the trade off when everyone in your country gets to have access to medical care. It's certainly not going to be ideal for the "gimmie it right now" folks. Also, most knees don't go bad overnight. Alternatively, you can either buy a supplemental to buy your way to the front of the line or fly to Mexico and get it done in a few minutes.

 

[Septic]

I’m just gonna jump in and throw out a gripe I have about medical billing. I can go to my primary physician for whatever. He checks me out, I have an X-ray, some bloodwork, and maybe some urinalysis. I go to ONE doctor....in the same building all lumped under one healthcare system and I get 3 separate bills. It’s ridiculous. I get billed for the visit, the radiologist part, and the lab work. It should be 1 f***ing bill!

Now imagine.... No billing.

 

[OHvol40]

I don’t know how you rate “ quality vs cost” but I see a lot less deaths in the US ( if I read it correctly ) in that article than compared to other countries . How much is that worth ? Are healthcare costs too expensive ? Of course they are . Do we get double the quality for double the price ? Of course we don’t . Would you pay double the cost of the let’s say UKs system if it kept you alive ? Of course you would .

Where do you see that? Can you quantify “a lot less”? It looks like the US mortality rate is measurably higher that other comparable countries...

 

[Septic]

That's insurance regulation, not your healthcare system. Completely deregulate the industry and see what happens. Imagine only having to have "major medical" again. Doctors actually having the ability to charge you as an individual vs. having to charge you because the insurance system is allowed to negotiate rates down so low that they have to charge 10x the cost to actually cover the cost. There are a lot of ways to fix the industry without demolishing it to emulate models that don't work.

LOL, what? Insurance companies aren't going to pay what a doctor 'decides', even if they inflate it 2x the cost. That's not how it works...

Ask any physician and they'll tell you that the reimbursements for procedures get whittled away at every year. It's like pulling teeth to get the insurance company to cover costs - many MD's are simply unwilling to work with some major medical insurers these days.

 

[0nelilreb]

Where do you see that? Can you quantify “a lot less”? It looks like the US mortality rate is measurably higher that other comparable countries...

View attachment 273779

Ok so we are going to ignore the ..30 day post op mortality rate for heart attacks and stokes being lower , the mortality rates for cancer being lower , the post op sepsis rate and the post op blood clot rates both being lower when talking about quality of health care in the US vs other comparable countries ?

 

[C-south]

Now imagine.... No billing.

There will always be billing. Another new bs thing this year is prescriptions. My doctor can write a 30 day prescription (60 pills) but insurance only pays for a week at a time. So now instead of one trip to the pharmacy I have to make 3 and the 3rd trip is just to get the last couple pills of the prescription....which I didn’t even bother with.

 

[Septic]

Ok so we are going to ignore the ..30 day post op mortality rate for heart attacks and stokes being lower , the mortality rates for cancer being lower , the post op sepsis rate and the post op blood clot rates both being lower when talking about quality of health care in the US vs other comparable countries ?

You're talking .3% difference on heart attacks. 2.5% on stroke and 1% higher on hemorrhagic stroke, these are statistically miniscule at double the cost... Again, the overall mortality rate is LOWER while the mortality amenable to healthcare is at the bottom of the pile of comparable countries.

Mortality amenable to healthcare is a measure of the rates of death considered preventable by timely and effective care. While the health care system might not be expected to prevent death in all instances, differences in amendable mortality indicate how effectively health care is delivered. The Healthcare Access and Quality (HAQ) Index is based on amenable mortality and uses age-standardized, risk-standardized mortality rates for 32 causes that timely and effective health care could potentially prevent. Based on data from the Global Burden of Disease Study, the HAQ Index is scaled from 0 to 100: lower scores indicate high mortality rates for causes amenable to health care, while higher scores indicate lower mortality rates and thus better quality of and access to health care. The U.S. ranks last among comparable countries on the HAQ index with a score of 88.7.

 

[Septic]

There will always be billing. Another new bs thing this year is prescriptions. My doctor can write a 30 day prescription (60 pills) but insurance only pays for a week at a time. So now instead of one trip to the pharmacy I have to make 3 and the 3rd trip is just to get the last couple pills of the prescription....which I didn’t even bother with.

Mail delivery not an option?

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Why should a person have to wait 6 months for a knee replacement?

Lots of important birth control surgeries ahead of you there Chief.

 

[0nelilreb]

You're talking .3% difference on heart attacks. 2.5% on stroke and 1% higher on hemorrhagic stroke, these are statistically miniscule at double the cost... Again, the overall mortality rate is LOWER while the mortality amenable to healthcare is at the bottom of the pile of comparable countries.

Is that better quality to you ? You are talking about vastly different cultures , societies , populations between the so called “ comparable “ countries . Again is health care too expensive ? Of course it is . Would you choose to have your procedure done outside the US just for the cost difference and knowing the quality is better here ? You’d be an idiot to . I support your free will to do that though . Unlike you , I really mean it when I say splash the gene pool with some bleach .