The Tiger Woods saga

[114VOL]

He's never been able to consistently hit fairways, "dialed back" or not.

Well, yes, he actually did when not using his driver. He won the 2006 Open Championship hitting irons off most tees. Being able to hit a 2 iron 260-280 can be devastating for everyone else when he can also laser a 5 iron from 215. That's why he was so much better than everyone else

 

[1972 Grad]

Hope you're not trying to say Kyle Stanley is as good with his irons as Tiger was with his. Proximity to the hole has to be factored into the equation as to whom are the best iron players.

There usually are only a few players who hit over 70% of greens in regulation. Tiger has done it in at least one year, as have 6 players so far this year. Kyle Stanley leads the tour at 71.78% , so I would say yes.

I am not denigrating Tiger's skill set in any way, but if you have ever attended tour events, it's easy to see that Tiger was not the only guy who can hit accurate iron shots. Tiger won with his mind, determination, and mental toughness.

 

[GAVol]

Well, yes, he actually did when not using his driver. He won the 2006 Open Championship hitting irons off most tees. Being able to hit a 2 iron 260-280 can be devastating for everyone else when he can also laser a 5 iron from 215. That's why he was so much better than everyone else

That stinger that Tiger used to hit off the tee was one of the best course management shots ever.

 

[114VOL]

There usually are only a few players who hit over 70% of greens in regulation. Tiger has done it in at least one year, as have 6 players so far this year. Kyle Stanley leads the tour at 71.78% , so I would say yes.

I am not denigrating Tiger's skill set in any way, but if you have ever attended tour events, it's easy to see that Tiger was not the only guy who can hit accurate iron shots. Tiger won with his mind, determination, and mental toughness.

Been to dozens of tour events. Played with quite a few guys in college and afterwards who have had some success on tour and national amateur events

 

[1972 Grad]

Been to dozens of tour events. Played with quite a few guys in college and afterwards who have had some success on tour and national amateur events

Then you should know that the player who leads the Tour in GIR is probably a pretty fair iron player.

 

[1972 Grad]

Been to dozens of tour events. Played with quite a few guys in college and afterwards who have had some success on tour and national amateur events

From the fairway 150-175 yards, Jordan Spieth leads the tour in distance from the hole. The 100th ranked player is 6 feet further from the hole than Spieth.

 

[volfanbill]

Then you should know that the player who leads the Tour in GIR is probably a pretty fair iron player.

This is a completely different argument than comparing them to Tiger's ball striking ability with his irons. Literally no one is saying the Tour's GIR leader isn't a good irons player. It's not even part of the equation. Quit going to that extreme. It can only help your argument to take a better route.

 

[1972 Grad]

This is a completely different argument than comparing them to Tiger's ball striking ability with his irons. Literally no one is saying the Tour's GIR leader isn't a good irons player. It's not even part of the equation. Quit going to that extreme. It can only help your argument to take a better route.

That makes no sense.

 

[114VOL]

Then you should know that the player who leads the Tour in GIR is probably a pretty fair iron player.

Yes, well aware of it

 

[114VOL]

From the fairway 150-175 yards, Jordan Spieth leads the tour in distance from the hole. The 100th ranked player is 6 feet further from the hole than Spieth.

Yeah, cool. Timing of great iron play means something too. None of those guys, yet, are in the stratosphere of Tiger's all around iron play from 2000-2008.

 

[volfanbill]

That makes no sense.

It does. The number one GIR player being a good irons player has zero to do with the incredible variety of shots that Tiger could absolutely pure from anywhere on the golf course at any time.

Your only argument to this point has been trying to tell us we think the #1 ranked GIR player is a hack simply because we think Tiger is better.

GOATs are reflected in more than just the most elementary stats

 

[1972 Grad]

It does. The number one GIR player being a good irons player has zero to do with the incredible variety of shots that Tiger could absolutely pure from anywhere on the golf course at any time.

Your only argument to this point has been trying to tell us we think the #1 ranked GIR player is a hack simply because we think Tiger is better.

GOATs are reflected in more than just the most elementary stats

As Bobby Jones once said...."championship golf is played mainly on a course 5-1/2 inches long.....roughly the space between your ears." That is what determines the GOATs.

 

[volfanbill]

As Bobby Jones once said...."championship golf is played mainly on a course 5-1/2 inches long.....roughly the space between your ears." That is what determines the GOATs.

Yea thanks

 

[1972 Grad]

Yea thanks

You're saying that Jones was wrong? Tiger and Jack won most of their majors because the people who weren't as strong mentally beat themselves on Sunday.

 

[volfanbill]

You're saying that Jones was wrong? Tiger and Jack won most of their majors because the people who weren't as strong mentally beat themselves on Sunday.

Good grief you're dense

 

[1972 Grad]

Good grief you're dense

There are too many really good players to watch now to even think about Tiger anymore. The game is in great hands with Spieth, McIlroy, Day, Johnson, Fowler, Watson, Stenson, Matsuyama, Thomas, etc. It's better than ever.

 

[Creeker]

There are too many really good players to watch now to even think about Tiger anymore. The game is in great hands with Spieth, McIlroy, Day, Johnson, Fowler, Watson, Stenson, Matsuyama, Thomas, etc. It's better than ever.

Maybe, but none of these guys do what tiger did or draw the crowds he did. Golf needs another tiger in a bad way. Viewership for The Masters was incredibly low. The final round of U.S. Open was the lowest in 29 years and 2nd lowest ever.

 

[05_never_again]

There are too many really good players to watch now to even think about Tiger anymore. The game is in great hands with Spieth, McIlroy, Day, Johnson, Fowler, Watson, Stenson, Matsuyama, Thomas, etc. It's better than ever.

You're totally right, but the buzz about golf is about a tenth of what it was when Tiger was at his peak. It's unfortunate. A lot of the guys you mentioned (Spieth, Day, Johnson, Fowler, and Bubba in particular) are great characters/charismatic guys in addition to being great players. It's not like there aren't any marketable guys. I'm not sure what the solution is.

It's a cliche, but I don't think golf really appeals to millennials like it appealed to kids in that age group 20 years ago. That's what Tiger did; he made golf cool with younger kids, minorities, and with people who generally who wouldn't have gotten into golf.

For kids, golf is too slow, things take too long to happen, and because of that it isn't well-suited for being shared on social media. Same problem that baseball has.

 

[1972 Grad]

You're totally right, but the buzz about golf is about a tenth of what it was when Tiger was at his peak. It's unfortunate. A lot of the guys you mentioned (Spieth, Day, Johnson, Fowler, and Bubba in particular) are great characters/charismatic guys in addition to being great players. It's not like there aren't any marketable guys. I'm not sure what the solution is.

It's a cliche, but I don't think golf really appeals to millennials like it appealed to kids in that age group 20 years ago. That's what Tiger did; he made golf cool with younger kids, minorities, and with people who generally who wouldn't have gotten into golf.

For kids, golf is too slow, things take too long to happen, and because of that it isn't well-suited for being shared on social media. Same problem that baseball has.

NASCAR is going down the tubes too. The internet and video games changed what people do. The hype around Tiger definitely brought people into the game, but the game is still the game. It's too hard and too time consuming for the masses. Those new folks didn't stick with it.

 

[GAVol]

NASCAR is going down the tubes too. The internet and video games changed what people do. The hype around Tiger definitely brought people into the game, but the game is still the game. It's too hard and too time consuming for the masses. Those new folks didn't stick with it.

The recession didn't help either.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

NASCAR is going down the tubes too. The internet and video games changed what people do. The hype around Tiger definitely brought people into the game, but the game is still the game. It's too hard and too time consuming for the masses. Those new folks didn't stick with it.

NASCAR just had 35,000 for the Brickyard 400....35K in a 250,000 seat racetrack.

It's pretty much hitting every sport. NASCAR and MLB especially, though MLB did get a small boost back from the Cubs winning. Even the NBA and the NFL aren't immune to it.

 

[05_never_again]

NASCAR just had 35,000 for the Brickyard 400....35K in a 250,000 seat racetrack.

It's pretty much hitting every sport. NASCAR and MLB especially, though MLB did get a small boost back from the Cubs winning. Even the NBA and the NFL aren't immune to it.

NASCAR made the mistake of believing it was a sport with national and not just regional/parochial appeal. That ultimately was their downfall. The NFL, to varying degrees, either is or is about to make the same mistake except it'll be with making changes to the sport to attract casual fans (think people who don't know much about football, but might tune in if they overheard that Tom Brady and Peyton Manning's teams were playing each other).

They took a race away or stopped racing altogether at some of the traditional, southern tracks where their core fanbase lives (granted, a lot of that had to do with bad attendance) in favor of racing out west or in the midwest. The constant rules changes are an absolute joke and have driven away longtime, traditional fans. Especially now that Dale Jr. is gone, the sport lacks a "good ole boy" type of driver. The most successful driver and face of the sport (Jimmie Johnson) has the charisma of a damp rag and personality-wise is the antithesis of someone like Dale Earnhardt or Richard Petty. As the sport grew, it really started to develop a corporate feel to it, which drives away the traditional, blue collar fans that make up their core fanbase.

The allegory would be if college football was only popular in the southeast, but people perceived a trend, so a bunch of northeastern and western schools start fielding teams and building 75,000 seat stadiums. The trend lasted for about 5 years before peaking.

NASCAR leadership is probably right when they say that the recession hurt them more than other sports, but to continue to use it as a reason for the decline in the sport is an excuse. They have structural and marketing/image problems that I'm not really sure are fixable, outside of returning to a purely or almost-purely regional sport like it used to be.

There also could be a generational component to it; millennials (yes, I know it sounds like I'm blaming everything on them) don't like cars as much as previous generations. Kids aren't busting down the door on their 16th birthday to get their driver's license anymore. They don't particularly care to drive and won't if they don't have to, much less actually work on an engine or something. Computers/smartphones are way cooler to them.

 

[1972 Grad]

I used to go to NASCAR back in the 1960's through the 80's. Another big problem came with stock cars not resembling what you could buy at the dealership anymore. Back then, a Dodge had a Chrysler engine, and it didn't look like a Torino that had a Ford engine. You could buy a 426 Hemi in a Charger at your local dealer. Like you all said, the fanbase could relate to Cale Yarborough or David Pearson or Richard Petty much easier than they can to some of the dorks that drive today.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

NASCAR reminds me of the Arena Football League. In the late 90s/early 2000s it kind of exploded as a nice fad sport and got pretty decent TV contracts with ESPN and NBC (who at the time had no NFL). The league expanded like crazy and got up to I think 24 teams, with plans to pretty much have an Arena team in every market that had an NFL team or at least really close to one and they even created a minor league for AFL (AF2). Then people got over it, attendance dropped like a rock and teams started moving and folding left and right. The league actually shut down for a year and then came back with about 14 teams, and now a few years later they only have 5 teams left and probably are looking at permanent shutdown any time.

NASCAR won't permanently shut down or anything, but something has to give.

 

[114VOL]

You're totally right, but the buzz about golf is about a tenth of what it was when Tiger was at his peak. It's unfortunate. A lot of the guys you mentioned (Spieth, Day, Johnson, Fowler, and Bubba in particular) are great characters/charismatic guys in addition to being great players. It's not like there aren't any marketable guys. I'm not sure what the solution is.

It's a cliche, but I don't think golf really appeals to millennials like it appealed to kids in that age group 20 years ago. That's what Tiger did; he made golf cool with younger kids, minorities, and with people who generally who wouldn't have gotten into golf.

For kids, golf is too slow, things take too long to happen, and because of that it isn't well-suited for being shared on social media. Same problem that baseball has.

Bubba may be liked by the fans, but his fellow players don't care for him too much. He's a real prick