They Don’t Pay Their Fair Share

[Vol8188]

Much like the upper deck end zone seat provided the same game.
On a macroscale, pretty much the same. On a microscale, vast differences.

So no, the poor were not provided the same society.
Do a composite of the first 20 years of a random sample of 100 people from the top 1%, compare that to a composite of the first 20 years of a random sample of people in the lowest economic quartile.
There is no way any sane person would conclude that what society offered or provided those two groups was even remotely equal.

How so? Because one had better results it means they were provided more? I’m not following. Plenty of people are provided the exact same and yet have vastly different results.

You seem to be falsely comparing achievement with government benefit. Without being able to describe in anyway how they benefit more from the government.

Do the wealthy and the poor not have the same federal government? Why should the 1% pay more than 40%?

 

[sjt18]

Much like the upper deck end zone seat provided the same game.
On a macroscale, pretty much the same. On a microscale, vast differences.

So no, the poor were not provided the same society.
Do a composite of the first 20 years of a random sample of 100 people from the top 1%, compare that to a composite of the first 20 years of a random sample of 100 people in the lowest economic quartile.
There is no way any sane person would conclude that what society offered or provided those two groups was even remotely equal.

The problem with your contention is that the last 60 years of Progressive ideals applied in education, policy, social programs, regulation, taxation, etc... has made it WORSE.

When people were freer and MORE responsible, they were more economically mobile . Neighborhoods now wrecked with poverty, crime, poor education, etc... were once thriving. Were they "equal" to white communities? Not yet. But they had a social foundation and a culture that enabled them to meet the struggles. Most kids that grew up in those communities had two parents who were married to each other. Discrimination was a huge issue.... but it was an obstacle that FREE PEOPLE who are not crippled by dependency and a victim mentality could overcome.

Life isn't fair. No "just" society will EVER be "fair". Attempts to make things "fair" have harmed those that were the target for help. We need to return to a "just" society where we protect rights but also require responsibility for how people use their rights. We cannot continually rescue people from bad choices... and expect to get less bad choices. If you subsidize bad behavior... you get more of it even if that behavior is recognizably destructive to the person doing it.

 

[82_VOL_83]

This seems to be a common left wing myth . LG recently claimed it’s the middle class who pay the majority of taxes in this country. That’s obviously 100% incorrect. If you look at the lower 1/3 of the middle class, they still receive more benefits than they pay in taxes.

It’s also well known that the lower class in this country does not pay taxes. When trying to sell my farm a few years ago a woman told me she would be able to get the down payment from her tax return and that the previous year she had only worked a couple of weeks and had received thousands back.

The 1% earns 20% of all income but pays 40% of the taxes in this country.

Where does this myth that the wealthy don’t pay taxes come from? Especially given that we have the most progressive taxes in the world. Can anyone back it up with data?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/12/10/middle-class-taxes/

What has happened in this country and it started with Clinton is the "redefinition" of classes. There never was a hard definition, it was mostly conjecture. However, when Barry got in the white house, all the sudden the folks that we (my age group) would have considered the upper half of the middle class all the sudden became rich and those that would have been in the "lower financial" class were now middle class. This is how we conflate useless definitions with actual numbers and stats and then make them mean whatever the agenda needs.

 

[82_VOL_83]

I have a brother in law that works under the table as a plumber/carpenters helper for more than 15 years. Wife has never worked. They get back 3 to 4k every single year like clockwork and blow it on dope. We raise 1 of their 4 kids, his brother raises another...the 2 small ones are stuck with their parents for now.

My wife and i pay a fortune in taxes/SS/etc and end up owing every year. My biggest complaint is that no portion of the fortune we have spent yearly keeping our kids in Christian school has ever been deductible or a tax credit. We dont want or need handouts like the millions of others get, but it would be nice to get a tax credit to help with the costs of educating my kids since the law mandates they must be educated or Big Brother will try to take them from us/lock us up. IF the .gov is gonna force their way into schooling kids, they should have a charter system with .gov vouchers with funding tied to whatever school we CHOOSE to put our kids in. Thats Capitalism, Freedom of choice...American ideals. Forced bussing, forced integration, forced ANYTHING concerning our children is ridiculous on its face and contrary to our national values.

If the .gov would keep its damn nose out of how I raise and educate my kids, i would expect nothing from them. If the excessive taxes we pay MUST pay for giving everyone elses kids a poor education, they should also help pay an equal amount per child towards my kids getting a decent education that actually rivals those in the best Western countries... the majority of public school students perform near the back of the pack among Western children elewhere...despite the US allegedly spending more $ per child to educate ours than anyone else on Earth.

The $/child is a misnomer. Yes, you can break that down into $$ per child yet the $$ never get to the children. It gets stopped at the admin level to pay for high price superintendents and all of the hangers on now that can't even teach, they just try to teach the teachers to teach. It really is a ****ing joke. Posters on here need to keep wishing the boomers and the following generation off the pay role. The generation after the boomers were the last really "well" educated generation in this country. And I say that loosely.

 

[82_VOL_83]

The problem with your contention is that the last 60 years of Progressive ideals applied in education, policy, social programs, regulation, taxation, etc... has made it WORSE.

When people were freer and MORE responsible, they were more economically mobile . Neighborhoods now wrecked with poverty, crime, poor education, etc... were once thriving. Were they "equal" to white communities? Not yet. But they had a social foundation and a culture that enabled them to meet the struggles. Most kids that grew up in those communities had two parents who were married to each other. Discrimination was a huge issue.... but it was an obstacle that FREE PEOPLE who are not crippled by dependency and a victim mentality could overcome.

Life isn't fair. No "just" society will EVER be "fair". Attempts to make things "fair" have harmed those that were the target for help. We need to return to a "just" society where we protect rights but also require responsibility for how people use their rights. We cannot continually rescue people from bad choices... and expect to get less bad choices. If you subsidize bad behavior... you get more of it even if that behavior is recognizably destructive to the person doing it.

/thread

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

The $/child is a misnomer. Yes, you can break that down into $$ per child yet the $$ never get to the children. It gets stopped at the admin level to pay for high price superintendents and all of the hangers on now that can't even teach, they just try to teach the teachers to teach. It really is a ****ing joke. Posters on here need to keep wishing the boomers and the following generation off the pay role. Then generation after the boomers were the last really "well" educated generation in this country. And I say that loosely.

Yeah, us Gen-Xers were the transitional generation. We had some of the old traditional values mixed in with the Clinton Era liberal doctrine in our college years.

Gen-X is a mixed bag.

 

[LouderVol]

Because they are benefiting more.
Kind of like a football ticket in a suite will cost more than one in the upper deck of the end zone.
Both are for the same game but the required contribution is different.

It would really help your argument if you could use some metrics.

The rich should pay what tax rate? Pick an income bracket
Is it a 1:1 ratio? The rich benefit X more so they pay X more?
Or is it the government spends however much money, the rich pay for it, whatever that rate is.
Do the poor and middle class continue to pay taxes? If so what happens to their rates? And back it up with the metrics.

 

[luthervol]

How so? Because one had better results it means they were provided more? I’m not following. Plenty of people are provided the exact same and yet have vastly different results.

You seem to be falsely comparing achievement with government benefit. Without being able to describe in anyway how they benefit more from the government.

Do the wealthy and the poor not have the same federal government? Why should the 1% pay more than 40%?

That's why I said a random sample. We all know someone can be born in poverty and still have great success. We all know that someone can be born with every advantage and still blow it. That's the beauty of America.

But we also all know that the greatest predictor of a person's ultimate success is the success of their parents.
You know that if you take a random sample of 100 of the top 1%, almost all of them will have some childhood commonalities.
You know that if you take a random sample of 100 of the bottom 25%, almost all of them will have commonalities.

In a way, it's like religion. The greatest predictor of the religious faith a person will adopt is the religious faith of the parents.

 

[sjt18]

I don't recall Republican supermajorities doing anything to actually help the middle class despite multiple opportunities to do so. Same with democratic supermajorities. This uniparty system gets their money and their votes from the middle and in turn does nothing for them but make life worse.

In what respect? Sincere question.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Self evident - they are in the top 1%.

LOL thank goodness the government is so benevolent so add to not take it all.

 

[sjt18]

It would really help your argument if you could use some metrics.

The rich should pay what tax rate? Pick an income bracket
Is it a 1:1 ratio? The rich benefit X more so they pay X more?
Or is it the government spends however much money, the rich pay for it, whatever that rate is.
Do the poor and middle class continue to pay taxes? If so what happens to their rates? And back it up with the metrics.

There is a false notion imbedded in every discussion of the income tax. The "rich" always transfer the "pain" of their taxes onto someone else. Not maliciously... just because that's what they're forced to do.

If the taxes go up on someone who owns 5 quick stops... then they have a choice. They can go up on prices. They can curtail pay or benefits for their employees. They can squeeze their vendors. Ultimately if none of that works they can go out of business. What they cannot do is allow an "income tax" hike to turn a money maker into a money loser. Many seem to think that the "rich" can just eat less caviar... but regardless of where you stand in the socioeconomic spectrum... how receptive would you be if your company said they were cutting your pay by 40%?

In the long history of the "progressive" income tax... has it EVER closed the gap between "rich" and "poor"?

 

[sjt18]

Self evident - they are in the top 1%.

By and large, they have taken advantage of opportunity more. They is seldom "privilege" that lands someone there. It is either their work or inherited from someone who worked.

 

[Vol8188]

That's why I said a random sample. We all know someone can be born in poverty and still have great success. We all know that someone can be born with every advantage and still blow it. That's the beauty of America.

But we also all know that the greatest predictor of a person's ultimate success is the success of their parents.
You know that if you take a random sample of 100 of the top 1%, almost all of them will have some childhood commonalities.
You know that if you take a random sample of 100 of the bottom 25%, almost all of them will have commonalities.

In a way, it's like religion. The greatest predictor of the religious faith a person will adopt is the religious faith of the parents.

Who told you that the greatest predictor of success is parents? Can you provide source for that? I’ve always seen IQ as the largest predictor of success.

Why are you assuming childhood commonalities or any of their advantages are a result of government?

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Who told you that the greatest predictor of success is parents? Can you provide source for that? I’ve always seen IQ as the largest predictor of success.

Why are you assuming childhood commonalities or any of their advantages are a result of government?

Because he kneels before government.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

That's why I said a random sample. We all know someone can be born in poverty and still have great success. We all know that someone can be born with every advantage and still blow it. That's the beauty of America.

But we also all know that the greatest predictor of a person's ultimate success is the success of their parents.
You know that if you take a random sample of 100 of the top 1%, almost all of them will have some childhood commonalities.
You know that if you take a random sample of 100 of the bottom 25%, almost all of them will have commonalities.

In a way, it's like religion. The greatest predictor of the religious faith a person will adopt is the religious faith of the parents.

Like single parent households that you leftists hold so dear?

 

[Vol8188]

Because he kneels before government.

“You should pay more because you got more of a benefit from the government”

Okay, Luther, how?

“Well your parents effect your outcomes”

Okay, what does that have to do with government?

….that’s where we are

 

[Vol8188]

Like single parent households that you leftists hold so dear?

Clearly we should penalize marriage by raising their taxes. Make everyone worse off so we “level the playing field”

 

[luthervol]

The problem with your contention is that the last 60 years of Progressive ideals applied in education, policy, social programs, regulation, taxation, etc... has made it WORSE.

When people were freer and MORE responsible, they were more economically mobile . Neighborhoods now wrecked with poverty, crime, poor education, etc... were once thriving. Were they "equal" to white communities? Not yet. But they had a social foundation and a culture that enabled them to meet the struggles. Most kids that grew up in those communities had two parents who were married to each other. Discrimination was a huge issue.... but it was an obstacle that FREE PEOPLE who are not crippled by dependency and a victim mentality could overcome.

Life isn't fair. No "just" society will EVER be "fair". Attempts to make things "fair" have harmed those that were the target for help. We need to return to a "just" society where we protect rights but also require responsibility for how people use their rights. We cannot continually rescue people from bad choices... and expect to get less bad choices. If you subsidize bad behavior... you get more of it even if that behavior is recognizably destructive to the person doing it.

Of course life isn't fair, which is precisely the reason why people (society/gov.) should be.

The US population has almost doubled in those 60 years and the demographics of that population have changed even more.
Things being "worse" is completely relative and subjective. We have no idea what things would be like had those progressive ideals not been implemented. In a multitude of ways things are "better" than they were 60 years ago.

 

[VOLS INC.]

“You should pay more because you got more of a benefit from the government”

Okay, Luther, how?

“Well your parents effect your outcomes”

Okay, what does that have to do with government?

….that’s where we are

The highlight of the thread was everyone debating who should help and to what degree should that help be provided in the annual Family Rock moving party.

Rigorous debate was had by all!

 

[OrangeTsar]

„Fair“ is a word that has no place in politics or law. Fair is subjective and cannot be measured.
Set a flat tax percentage rate and everyone pays that rate after a small limited set of allowable deductions.

 

[luthervol]

Who told you that the greatest predictor of success is parents? Can you provide source for that? I’ve always seen IQ as the largest predictor of success.

Why are you assuming childhood commonalities or any of their advantages are a result of government?

Genes and family are biggest predictor of academic success
Summary: Whether children will enjoy academic success can be now predicted at birth, a new study suggests. The study found that parents' socioeconomic status and children's inherited DNA differences are powerful predictors of educational achievement.

Georgetown Study: Wealth, Not Ability, The Biggest Predictor Of Future Success
Georgetown Study: Wealth, Not Ability, The Biggest Predictor Of Future Success

The advantages are tied to the society in which they, their parents, their grandparents, etc.... lived.
The quality of that society cannot be separated from the government's role in creating and maintaining that society.

 

[VOLS INC.]

Genes and family are biggest predictor of academic success
Summary: Whether children will enjoy academic success can be now predicted at birth, a new study suggests. The study found that parents' socioeconomic status and children's inherited DNA differences are powerful predictors of educational achievement.

Georgetown Study: Wealth, Not Ability, The Biggest Predictor Of Future Success
Georgetown Study: Wealth, Not Ability, The Biggest Predictor Of Future Success

The advantages are tied to the society in which they, their parents, their grandparents, etc.... lived.
The quality of that society cannot be separated from the government's role in creating and maintaining that society.

Given this information.
Seems like we should invest in those that have the best chance of being successful, and punt on the ones that don’t.

rational and reasonable

 

[82_VOL_83]

Yeah, us Gen-Xers were the transitional generation. We had some of the old traditional values mixed in with the Clinton Era liberal doctrine in our college years.

Gen-X is a mixed bag.

You were pretty much the last generation that public school didn't fail on a wide scale. When my kids were coming through public school, the schism had already begun with the kids starting to rule the classrooms and the teachers beginning to teach liberal dogma as routine. Some of the stories that my kids would come home with were appalling and some of the conversations that I had with my sister who started teaching in the late 90's just make you sick. The stories she tells now are exactly what the LG's and loothers will tell you would never happen. If anyone thinks that we haven't lost a generation or two to the government, they are kidding themselves.

 

[Vol8188]

Genes and family are biggest predictor of academic success
Summary: Whether children will enjoy academic success can be now predicted at birth, a new study suggests. The study found that parents' socioeconomic status and children's inherited DNA differences are powerful predictors of educational achievement.

Georgetown Study: Wealth, Not Ability, The Biggest Predictor Of Future Success
Georgetown Study: Wealth, Not Ability, The Biggest Predictor Of Future Success

The advantages are tied to the society in which they, their parents, their grandparents, etc.... lived.
The quality of that society cannot be separated from the government's role in creating and maintaining that society.

It seems the advantage is their parents and their dna. I’m not following you here.

The government helps create and maintain a society…okay. The people are successful in that society because of their parents (genetics and income)…okay.

How do we get from there to the government is the reason for their success and therefore paying double your share (40% on 20% of the income) is not enough?

I’m failing to see the role of the government here.

 

[82_VOL_83]

That's why I said a random sample. We all know someone can be born in poverty and still have great success. We all know that someone can be born with every advantage and still blow it. That's the beauty of America.

But we also all know that the greatest predictor of a person's ultimate success is the success of their parents.
You know that if you take a random sample of 100 of the top 1%, almost all of them will have some childhood commonalities.
You know that if you take a random sample of 100 of the bottom 25%, almost all of them will have commonalities.

In a way, it's like religion. The greatest predictor of the religious faith a person will adopt is the religious faith of the parents.

Yeah, parents that give a **** or not is primary.