This makes me wanna vomit (So help me God, it turned into a climate debate)

#26
#26
OrangeEmpire said:

What drives me crazy about global warming is to think for a second we have power over the earth.
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I just assumed that this was a statement that you didn't think greenhouse gases created by humans warmed the Earth. Frankly, for the most part I agree with you about how ludicrous it is to tax things like cow farts, but I'm willing to accept that humans have a major influence on the world we live in environmentally.
 
#28
#28
TreeGreen said:
I just assumed that this was a statement that you didn't think greenhouse gases created by humans warmed the Earth. Frankly, for the most part I agree with you about how ludicrous it is to tax things like cow farts, but I'm willing to accept that humans have a major influence on the world we live in environmentally.
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You had me till there.
 
#30
#30
TreeGreen said:
That's why I said if you want to ignore it that is your prerogative. No other species or entity on earth has as much influence as humans, although the crazies seem to think cows are up there.
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No argument there...

Why is it now a crisis?

Oh, that is right, it is a political issue which equals power for politicians.
 
#32
#32
It is a good thing we got past that ice age in the late 70's and early 80's.

Or that gulf stream disappearing in the 50's...
 
#33
#33
TreeGreen said:
The earth will be here no matter what we do. The difference will be what species exist on it, and the argument isn't that we are leading ourselves to an apocalyptic destruction, but that we are trending in a direction that could have dire consequences for a decent chunk of the population both human and otherwise. Frankly, I wish scientists would stop trying to predict what will happen so they don't have egg all over their face when it doesn't.

What we do know is that the earth is warming significantly faster than in other periods of its history, and that greenhouse gases are a major player in the process. If you want to ignore that it is certainly your prerogative, but I'd rather play it safe than assume nothing horrible is going to happen. If nothing else we can be assured that the earth is losing a large portion of its fresh water supply as the glaciers melt. Supplying fresh, clean, water to our population is already becoming an issue and we're losing significant portions of the earths reserves.
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If by "play it safe" you mean cripple production and curb advancement, then sure. I find it particularly ironic that the environmentalists wish for so much legislation concerning models of what could possibly happen over the next hundred to a thousand years, yet, these same people seem to ignore what will most definitely happen to world productivity if measures such as the Kyoto Protocol are actually employed.

As for your following sentence, glaciers have actually been growing the past few years and supplying fresh, clean water is pretty a pretty neat byproduct of thermonuclear power. Oops...
 
#34
#34
OrangeEmpire said:
No argument there...

Why is it now a crisis?

Oh, that is right, it is a political issue which equals power for politicians.
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I never called it a crisis, I just pointed out that there are some dire consequences associated with warming. I used water issues because it's the most prevalent, and can be more clearly linked to both the increase in population and the decrease in fresh water supply (of which the glaciers represent a significant chunk).
 
#35
#35
TreeGreen said:
I never called it a crisis, I just pointed out that there are some dire consequences associated with warming. I used water issues because it's the most prevalent, and can be more clearly linked to both the increase in population and the decrease in fresh water supply (of which the glaciers represent a significant chunk).
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The easiests example is the worlds largest lake, The Caspian Sea.

Oh yeah back on topic....... Newdow is an attention whore!
 
#36
#36
therealUT said:
As for your following sentence, glaciers have actually been growing the past few years and supplying fresh, clean water is pretty a pretty neat byproduct of thermonuclear power. Oops...
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What in the world are you talking about? I must have missed the part where the largest glaciers in the world are melting, and how the Antarctic is disappearing...oops. I also never called for a curbing of production processes, but your continued need to spout off incorrect information is always a treat.
 
#39
#39
TreeGreen said:
So, I mean what's it like living in a fantasy world where every piece of scientific and observable evidence is opposed to your point of view of glaciers?
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so are we to take you at your word that you're some kind of climatologist with a background in glacialogy? Or do you read Mother Jones on a regular basis?
 
#40
#40
MG1968 said:
so are we to take you at your word that you're some kind of climatologist with a background in glacialogy? Or do you read Mother Jones on a regular basis?
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Just like I should take his word that he's a glacial expert? Give me a break. Only a handful of glaciers in the world are growing, and they are an anomaly as well. Glaciers should live in a state of equilibrium where they are maintaining themselves in a state of melt and growth. Lower climates make glaciers grow, warmer climates make them melt. In other words, increased snowfall and lower recorded climates make them grow. Even fox news has been reporting that climate change is causing roughly 90 percent of the world's mountain glaciers to shrink. This information is not hard to find.
 
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#41
#41
TreeGreen said:
So, I mean what's it like living in a fantasy world where every piece of scientific and observable evidence is opposed to your point of view of glaciers?
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I am glad you decided to use the modifier "every". Makes my job of disproving your credibility that much easier (I only need one article to do so.)

Some Glaciers Growing Due to Climate Change, Study Suggests

I went the extra mile and decided to throw one in that is still in favor of the global warming theory, too. Bingo.
 
#42
#42
TreeGreen said:
I just assumed that this was a statement that you didn't think greenhouse gases created by humans warmed the Earth. Frankly, for the most part I agree with you about how ludicrous it is to tax things like cow farts, but I'm willing to accept that humans have a major influence on the world we live in environmentally.
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I am by no means an expert but the way I understand it is that humans would be responsible for less than one degree in average temperature rise on the planet. Is this correct or am I wrong here?
 
#43
#43
therealUT said:
I am glad you decided to use the modifier "every". Makes my job of disproving your credibility that much easier (I only need one article to do so.)

Some Glaciers Growing Due to Climate Change, Study Suggests

I went the extra mile and decided to throw one in that is still in favor of the global warming theory, too. Bingo.
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Tell you what, I'll add an article from your favorite news source that still says otherwise. On the whole, which is my argument, glaciers are shrinking and will continue to do so in the future.

FOXNews.com - Mysterious California Glaciers Keep Growing Despite Warming - Science News | Science & Technology | Technology News
 
#44
#44
therealUT said:
If by "play it safe" you mean cripple production and curb advancement, then sure. I find it particularly ironic that the environmentalists wish for so much legislation concerning models of what could possibly happen over the next hundred to a thousand years, yet, these same people seem to ignore what will most definitely happen to world productivity if measures such as the Kyoto Protocol are actually employed.

As for your following sentence, glaciers have actually been growing the past few years and supplying fresh, clean water is pretty a pretty neat byproduct of thermonuclear power. Oops...
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I don't think that I understand your last point about thermonuclear power....can you elaborate?

As for the earlier points...I would agree that many environmentalists either do not care or perhaps even encourage the negative economic impacts of many of the policies they espouse. However, many of the scientists that make and run the models you mention are also interested in the economic impacts. The whole issue can be boiled down to does it cost more to act or not to act. Their are a lot of people trying to answer that question. Though most suggest that the cost of inaction is higher, this doesn't really take into account uncertainty - which is another major area of research. We know the certainty of the negative economic impacts if we act fairly well...we don't understand the negative economic impacts if we don't act nearly as well.
 
#45
#45
TreeGreen said:
Just like I should take his word that he's a glacial expert? Give me a break. Only a handful of glaciers in the world are growing, and they are an anomaly as well. Glaciers should live in a state of equilibrium where they are maintaining themselves in a state of melt and growth. Lower climates make glaciers grow, warmer climates make them melt. In other words, increased snowfall and lower recorded climates make them grow. Even fox news has been reporting that climate change is causing roughly 90 percent of the world's mountain glaciers to shrink. This information is not hard to find.
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This is true when we are not going through a warming period as we have been. Humans are only to blame for a minute fraction of the warming, these glaciers would have started to melt anyway wouldn't they?
 
#46
#46
KB5252 said:
This is true when we are not going through a warming period as we have been. Humans are only to blame for a minute fraction of the warming, these glaciers would have started to melt anyway wouldn't they?
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Glaciers are supposed to melt, but they are not supposed to disappear. They should be in a state of equilibrium where snow fall keeps them at a constant rate. If the earth warms, then snowfall decreases and they melt considerably faster than they should. That may be the point to elaborate on is the speed with which they have been melting since about 1850.
 
#47
#47
Wow, attention whore to global warming to some how Fox News.....

Never quite understood the obsession with Fox News...
 
#48
#48
OrangeEmpire said:
Wow, attention whore to global warming to some how Fox News.....

Never quite understood the obsession with Fox News...
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Well, I think it was more of the progression of the post. The random lawsuit to take out 'so help me God' out of inaugural flamed out a little early. To be on topic, I would be shocked if it makes it very far at all which makes it somewhat moot.
 
#49
#49
TreeGreen said:
Glaciers are supposed to melt, but they are not supposed to disappear. They should be in a state of equilibrium where snow fall keeps them at a constant rate. If the earth warms, then snowfall decreases and they melt considerably faster than they should. That may be the point to elaborate on is the speed with which they have been melting since about 1850.
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I see, but my point is that since it evident that earth has been going through a warming trend (of which only a very small fraction can be blamed on man) wouldn't they have melted either at this rate or a rate very close to the one we are seeing now?
 
#50
#50
jeez, mention Al Gore's fat ass and a thread goes down a strange tangent.
 
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