TN all time best

[EasternVol]

Dal1st Team

PG- C.J. Watson
SG- Dalton Knecht
SF- Ernie Grunfeld
PF- Bernard King
C- Tom Boerwinkle

Coach- Ray Mears

2nd Team

PG- Tony White
SG- Chris Lofton
SF- Allan Houston
PF- Reggie Johnson
C- C.J. Black

Coach- Rick Barnes

3rd Team

PG- Rodney Carter
SG- Lang Wiseman
SF- Dyron Nix
PF- Tobias Harris
C- Grant Williams

Coach- Bruce Pearl

Thoughts from the board and who do you think should be on these teams?

Dale Ellis is first team SF.
Houston is 1st team.
Barnes for 1st team coach, Mears 2nd.
Just my 2¢.

 

[NighthawkVol]

I love Houston but his peak was simply lower than either of those guys here. We played less games when they played vs Houston. Grunfeld played 27 fewer games, had they had the same number of games, Ernie outscores Houston, with a three-point line he does so by a significant margin. Ellis shooting 60 percent from the field for his career is insane. He went on to be the all-time leading NBA 3 point shooter during his career and shot over 40 percent from that range. He'd have been able to average probably 27-30 a game here with a three point line. Ellis and King are the only former Vols to ever average more than 25 points per game in the NBA for a season and both did it for multiple seasons.

One thing you're omitting though...Ellis wasn't a great outside shooter in college. He was a Center. He developed that shot later....which is amazing that he could do, of course, but the 3 point line would not have meant as much to his stats as you say. Ellis averaged 17.5 ppg at UT. For him to average 27-30 ppg as you claim, you're saying he'd have replaced 10 to 13 made 2's per game with 10 to 13 made 3's per game for his entire college career. I don't have to tell you how unrealistic that is, especially for a guy who wasn't an outside shooter until he got to the NBA.

Houston, while in college, was a 3 level scorer. In fact, he's the best 3 level scorer in program history (including King, who scored mostly from 17 feet in). Further, Houston averaged more than 20 ppg in each of his 4 seasons he was at Tennessee. Ellis only averaged more than 20 ppg in 2 seasons and, as a freshman, only averaged 7.1 ppg. So Houston was great for longer. Yes, the FG% for Ellis is impressive, but he was playing close to the basket as a Vol before changing his game as a pro.

 

[KTrain]

Tobias has NOT been in the NBA for 20 years, over 10, yes. But, nowhere near 20+ years.

Edit: I looked it up, this is Harris 13th season

yep, you are right his last year here was 2011 and not sure how I subtracted that from 2024 and got 20+

 

[VolArmy74]

One thing you're omitting though...Ellis wasn't a great outside shooter in college. He was a Center. He developed that shot later....which is amazing that he could do, of course, but the 3 point line would not have meant as much to his stats as you say. Ellis averaged 17.5 ppg at UT. For him to average 27-30 ppg as you claim, you're saying he'd have replaced 10 to 13 made 2's per game with 10 to 13 made 3's per game for his entire college career. I don't have to tell you how unrealistic that is, especially for a guy who wasn't an outside shooter until he got to the NBA.

Houston, while in college, was a 3 level scorer. In fact, he's the best 3 level scorer in program history (including King, who scored mostly from 17 feet in). Further, Houston averaged more than 20 ppg in each of his 4 seasons he was at Tennessee. Ellis only averaged more than 20 ppg in 2 seasons and, as a freshman, only averaged 7.1 ppg. So Houston was great for longer. Yes, the FG% for Ellis is impressive, but he was playing close to the basket as a Vol before changing his game as a pro.

Ellis was a great shooter. He had no reason to be an outside shooter in college with no three point line. He shot 41.4 percent from the NBA three point line his rookie year and was a career 41 percent shooter there, he could always shoot deep and did so when he had a reason. I can't ignore him shooting nearly 15 percentage points per game better than Houston, being able to score 20+ ppg while shooting 60-65 percent is incredibly valuable for a guy who can handle the basketball.

Houston got to play more as a freshman and ended up with better volume stats. Dale Ellis was a better basketball player with a higher peak than Houston both in college and the NBA. If I were starting a team tomorrow, I'd take Ellis all day over him and if I were having an All-Time UT draft Ellis is probably my third pick behind King and Grunfeld, though I'd even consider him over Grunfeld.

 

[sami]

Well, you don't fall into the group im talking about, I mean if you are a NBA fan and watch multiple games you have to be a true basketball fan. Some of the NBA is just unwatchable. I think if DK could do a 20+ year NBA career he'd take it, I think he will translate well but i've been fooled before by some top college players, the NBA grind is a lot different than College ball.

Agree on the NBA, I'm much more of a casual Sixers fan these days and don't watch much else. The product has become dull and unwatchable more often than not (much like the NFL), which is why it's so distressing that the college games are trying to emulate the pros.

It's unlikely that DK will not have a long career in the NBA at the very least as a solid 3&D role player, which are always at a premium. With his work ethic, length, and 3-level scoring ability, it isn't hard to imagine him in a guard rotation at some point.

 

[sami]

I love Houston but his peak was simply lower than either of those guys here. We played less games when they played vs Houston. Grunfeld played 27 fewer games, had they had the same number of games, Ernie outscores Houston, with a three-point line he does so by a significant margin. Ellis shooting 60 percent from the field for his career is insane. He went on to be the all-time leading NBA 3 point shooter during his career and shot over 40 percent from that range. He'd have been able to average probably 27-30 a game here with a three point line. Ellis and King are the only former Vols to ever average more than 25 points per game in the NBA for a season and both did it for multiple seasons.

The most interesting thing about Ellis as a pro is that the one question on him coming out of school was his perimeter shooting, as he was incredibly unselfish and efficient at UT, rarely taking low percentage longer shots, but working more in the paint. And he goes on to become one of the all time great NBA 3-pt. shooters and is known more as a sniper than anything else.

He's the best college player I ever saw on a day-to-day basis because he was so well rounded at UT - excellent passer and rebounder as well as a superior defensive player who always drew the toughest assignment regardless of position. I remember him shutting down Sampson in the NCAA's until some cheap ticky tack calls got him in foul trouble.

 

[sami]

Ellis was a great shooter. He had no reason to be an outside shooter in college with no three point line. He shot 41.4 percent from the NBA three point line his rookie year and was a career 41 percent shooter there, he could always shoot deep and did so when he had a reason. I can't ignore him shooting nearly 15 percentage points per game better than Houston, being able to score 20+ ppg while shooting 60-65 percent is incredibly valuable for a guy who can handle the basketball.

Houston got to play more as a freshman and ended up with better volume stats. Dale Ellis was a better basketball player with a higher peak than Houston both in college and the NBA. If I were starting a team tomorrow, I'd take Ellis all day over him and if I were having an All-Time UT draft Ellis is probably my third pick behind King and Grunfeld, though I'd even consider him over Grunfeld.

I find it hard to even consider a comparison between Ellis and Houston. Allan was a great offensive player on bad teams, and that's where it began and ended. Ellis was a great player, period, on bad teams that he elevated to SEC championship and NCAA levels. Granted, DeVoe was an excellent coach, but it was Ellis' ability to make those around him better as well as get his own that separates him from every player in UT history except Bernard King. And yes, I'll take Ellis over Grunfeld.

 

[Rockytop10nessee]

Ernie Grunfield
Bernard King
Dale Ellis
Chris Lofton
Grant Williams

Coach Rick Barnes - Coach

Ernie
Bernie
Dale
DK
CLo

Coach - Bruce Pearl, but Rick Barnes if he goes to an elite 8 or better.

 

[Rockytop10nessee]

I think by the time these tournaments are over you can add Dalton Knecht

It should be Bernard and then DK and then everyone else.

 

[LibertyVol]

1st Team

PG- C.J. Watson
SG- Dalton Knecht
SF- Ernie Grunfeld
PF- Bernard King
C- Tom Boerwinkle

Coach- Ray Mears

2nd Team

PG- Tony White
SG- Chris Lofton
SF- Allan Houston
PF- Reggie Johnson
C- C.J. Black

Coach- Rick Barnes

3rd Team

PG- Rodney Carter
SG- Lang Wiseman
SF- Dyron Nix
PF- Tobias Harris
C- Grant Williams

Coach- Bruce Pearl

Thoughts from the board and who do you think should be on these teams?

No Dale Ellis?

 

[aWhiteLoftonChism]

To me it's tiers.

BK exists on his own tier.

Then Ernie/Ellis a in the next tier.

Then Houston, White, Lofton, Johnson, Widby, and Williams would be my 3rd tier.

Knecht at 3 years here doing what he is this season probably lands in tier two. But if he only stays one, he'll be in a 3/4 tier with guys who had exceptional single seasons imo.

I think you are in the right track with this post. I think Houston could be on the 2nd tier. What do you think about adding Ron Slay, Yarbrough, and Dyron Nix to the 3rd tier? They were all incredible and had some SEC POY wins I believe?

 

[Caz]

1st Team

PG- C.J. Watson
SG- Dalton Knecht
SF- Ernie Grunfeld
PF- Bernard King
C- Tom Boerwinkle

Coach- Ray Mears

2nd Team

PG- Tony White
SG- Chris Lofton
SF- Allan Houston
PF- Reggie Johnson
C- C.J. Black

Coach- Rick Barnes

3rd Team

PG- Rodney Carter
SG- Lang Wiseman
SF- Dyron Nix
PF- Tobias Harris
C- Grant Williams

Coach- Bruce Pearl

Thoughts from the board and who do you think should be on these teams?

Great break down from different era’s and some of whom I’d forgotten

 

[Caz]

Some other Notables that probably could land on a 6th man pole might be Gary Carter, Steve Ray, Jordan Bone, Scottie Hopson,

 

[VolCalls]

I find it hard to even consider a comparison between Ellis and Houston. Allan was a great offensive player on bad teams, and that's where it began and ended. Ellis was a great player, period, on bad teams that he elevated to SEC championship and NCAA levels. Granted, DeVoe was an excellent coach, but it was Ellis' ability to make those around him better as well as get his own that separates him from every player in UT history except Bernard King. And yes, I'll take Ellis over Grunfeld.

Houston is being weighed down by some because of how bad of a head coach his father was. Allan carried his team to the SEC Tournament Championship game in 1991 and was tournament MVP, despite a losing effort. He was also first-team All-SEC all four years and a 3rd team All-American twice. He was a tremendous player.

The Tennessee Men’s Basketball program has four retired jerseys hanging in the rafters. Allan’s is one of those.

 

[BernardKingGOAT]

Houston is being weighed down by some because of how bad of a head coach his father was. Allan carried his team to the SEC Tournament Championship game in 1991 and was tournament MVP, despite a losing effort. He was also first-team All-SEC all four years and a 3rd team All-American twice. He was a tremendous player.

The Tennessee Men’s Basketball program has four retired jerseys hanging in the rafters. Allan’s is one of those.

Barnes would have made the tournament every year Allan was there with the same players. Wade recruited decently while there. He just didn't know how to develop and mold them

 

[Volfan1000]

No Dale Ellis?

I would have slotted Ellis as the 6th man on the first team.

 

[BernardKingGOAT]

I would have slotted Ellis as the 6th man on the first team.

Ellis is an auto as the other forward opposite Bernard. I believe Reggie Johnson should be the other member of the front line. The backcourt is more open to opinion. I think any combination people have mentioned as to the 3 other starters is adequate, but King and Ellis are staples

 

[Dr H Lecter]

Anyone thinking Dale Ellis shouldn’t be on the all time team never saw him play! As far as Houston, he had a lot in common with Maravitch- both had Dad’s for coaches and both played on horrible teams. IMHO, Maravitch and Houston could not blend into a really good team like DK has. Besides his incredible skills, his most valuable contribution has been to blend himself into a great team player. I don’t think Houston or Maravitch could have done that. Just an opinion, because proof can only be seen in DK’s play. By the way, do any of you old timers remember Howard Bayne? Awaka reminds me of him with his rebounding tenacity.

 

[BernardKingGOAT]

Anyone thinking Dale Ellis shouldn’t be on the all time team never saw him play! As far as Houston, he had a lot in common with Maravitch- both had Dad’s for coaches and both played on horrible teams. IMHO, Maravitch and Houston could not blend into a really good team like DK has. Besides his incredible skills, his most valuable contribution has been to blend himself into a great team player. I don’t think Houston or Maravitch could have done that. Just an opinion, because proof can only be seen in DK’s play.

Houston developed that team mentality in the NBA. He pretty much led the Knicks to the 1999 NBA finals

 

[Dr H Lecter]

Houston developed that team mentality in the NBA. He pretty much led the Knicks to the 1999 NBA finals

I would agree with you but I don’t like Pro basketball-college only.

 

[BernardKingGOAT]

I would agree with you but I don’t like Pro basketball-college only.

One thing about the NBA is that they get it as to how to conduct their postseason tournament.

 

[Dr H Lecter]

You know GOAT, I use to watch the pro playoffs-they actually seemed to be trying. But I’m not like most College fans. I’m not as hung up on the Tournament as most fans are. Don’t get me wrong, l hurt every time we get knocked out of the tournament and would love a final four. But I enjoy UT basketball from November to March, not just a week or two in March. I know I’m in the minority.

 

[sami]

Houston is being weighed down by some because of how bad of a head coach his father was. Allan carried his team to the SEC Tournament Championship game in 1991 and was tournament MVP, despite a losing effort. He was also first-team All-SEC all four years and a 3rd team All-American twice. He was a tremendous player.

The Tennessee Men’s Basketball program has four retired jerseys hanging in the rafters. Allan’s is one of those.

I'm not debating the idea of Houston as a great player, a VFL, or worthy of a retired jersey in any way. I just can't compare him to Dale Ellis, who was the only really legit player on those early '80's teams and went to the NCAA's twice, getting to the round of 32 and falling to great Louisville and Virginia teams (they had the Sampson UVa team beaten but for missed Michael Brooks FT's - still burns me). He was a 2-time SEC POY and a 2-time All-American, 1st team as a senior.

Ellis and Bernard King are to me untouchable as the two greatest players to wear the orange and white.

 

[OrangeVolMan]

People really forget how good Dale Ellis was. There was no 3 point shot when he played so it was more advantageous to take the ball down low. He averaged over 21 points a game and shot over 60% his junior and senior years. He went on to be one of the best 3 point shooters of his era in the NBA. I would loved to have seen Ellis in the era of the 3 point shot. I love DK but Ellis is probably the 2nd best player ever at UT. Grunfield would be right there with him, scoring more points but never reaching the shooting percentage of Ellis.

 

[BernardKingGOAT]

You know GOAT, I use to watch the pro playoffs-they actually seemed to be trying. But I’m not like most College fans. I’m not as hung up on the Tournament as most fans are. Don’t get me wrong, l hurt every time we get knocked out of the tournament and would love a final four. But I enjoy UT basketball from November to March, not just a week or two in March. I know I’m in the minority.

I'm not sure it's a significant minority. I am right there with you, as I believe many others are who post here. The NCAA tourney is more significant to casual fans. I get it. Fun, competitive games. Wish they would make it best 2 of 3 from Sweet 16 through Final Four. Would make it more legitimate