Tom Brady.....even better than I thought he was.

[n_huffhines]

Coaching staffs sure, but if you're trying to be a least a little bit objective you'd realize the "stacked roster" is an after the fact observation aka hindsight is 20/20. You argue until you're blue in the face but while it was happening nobody was acting like Brady had a ton of weapons on offense with most of those guys.

And nobody was acting like those rosters weren't stacked. They'd have 4 pro bowlers on a defense that finished top 3 in yards and points surrendered. Who needs hindsight to know McGinest, Seau, Bruschi, Seymour, Wilfork, Milloy, Law, Samuel, Mayo, etc. were all stars?

 

[PlanetVolunteer]

Here we go guys

Let's look at what little Tom had in all his super bowl years 2011 on

2011
Wes Welker 1,500 yards (yep all Tom here, Wes was actually a bum and only was open because of Tom Brady)

Or maybe it was because Tom had the best TE tandem in the history of the game?

Gronk and Aaron Hernandez both had around 1,000 yards

Deion Branch had returned with around 700 yards. Edelman and Chad Johnson rounded out the bench.

At RB you had Green-Ellis, Woodhead, Faulk and Ridley.

2014
Legarrette Blount, Vereen, Gray and Ridley at RB.

Gronk, Edelman, Amendola, LaFell, (6'2 big and fast)

Just an insane amount of talent on defense that year including Darrelle Revis who was getting MVP talk at CB.

Pretty much that same group for the next few years just add guys like

Brandin Cooks, Cordarrelle Patterson, Josh Gordon, James White, Martellus Bennett, Sony Michel, Burkhead and all the other guys they utilized so well.

He straight up had as much talent as anybody.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

And nobody was acting like those rosters weren't stacked. They'd have 4 pro bowlers on a defense that finished top 3 in yards and points surrendered. Who needs hindsight to know McGinest, Seau, Bruschi, Seymour, Wilfork, Milloy, Law, Samuel, Mayo, etc. were all stars?

Cool.

I was addressing as @PlanetVolunteer is clearly indicating that Brady had a "stacked roster" offensively. And if anyone really believes that, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree and move on.

 

[PlanetVolunteer]

Cool.

I was addressing as @PlanetVolunteer is clearly indicating that Brady had a "stacked roster" offensively. And if anyone really believes that, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree and move on.

Stacked roster across the board yes.

At worst he had really good talent on offense, but there was at least one hall of famer present at all times and a bunch of pro bowl guys and just solid players.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

Stacked roster across the board yes.

At worst he had really good talent on offense, but there was at least one hall of famer present at all times and a bunch of pro bowl guys and just solid players.

 

[n_huffhines]

Cool.

I was addressing as @PlanetVolunteer is clearly indicating that Brady had a "stacked roster" offensively. And if anyone really believes that, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree and move on.

I didn't interpret what he said to be specifically offensive.

The Patriots almost always had a very good line and competent weapons. There were a couple years with not a great line. A year or two with incompetent weapons.

And my underlying point is that having weapons isn't the best formula. Brady won 3 titles in 4 years when he wasn't even that good yet. His weapons were lacking moreso then than any other 4-year run in his career. But the D was elite in those 3 title runs, and there you have it.

 

[zjcvols]

Why does that mean they would clash, tho? Peyton got along with everybody, including Gase, who no one likes. BB and Brady did clash and it was OK.

Because Peyton could do whatever he wanted on offense. I don’t know if BB would let him do that, especially early on in the dynasty when they were big on ball control

 

[n_huffhines]

Because Peyton could do whatever he wanted on offense. I don’t know if BB would let him do that, especially early on in the dynasty when they were big on ball control

We're talking about a 22 YO Peyton Manning getting raised by Bill Bellichik. He didn't come into the league thinking he would be doing whatever he wanted on offense. I can see what you're saying potentially being an issue if 32 YO Peyton is suddenly paired up with BB, but I can't see it being a problem if BB is all he ever knows and they're winning 12 games a year.

 

[Volizona]

We're talking about a 22 YO Peyton Manning getting raised by Bill Bellichik. He didn't come into the league thinking he would be doing whatever he wanted on offense. I can see what you're saying potentially being an issue if 32 YO Peyton is suddenly paired up with BB, but I can't see it being a problem if BB is all he ever knows and they're winning 12 games a year.

Brady was raised to be a system QB when he started. Bellicheat handled him with care because he didn’t have a track record in college. He was very average at Michigan. The system of short passes with yards after the catch was followed to a T. Brady was a very average QB for his first 3 SBs look at his stats. He was basically a game manager and let the defense do its thing. No doubt Brady got better and he got more authority later on. Peyton on the other hand was a highly decorated QB and a number one pick. Had BB drafted Peyton he likely would have given him more control over the offense based on his track record. However BB doesn’t like to draft QBs high and pay a lot of money because he knows he can draft or squire QBs with an average skill set and still succeed. Think Their current QB from Bama, Garrapalo, Cassell and even Brady at the start who have all had success.

 

[Boston Vol]

He most certainly could have.

Thats not absurd at all.

Did you watch freaking watch him single handedly carry the Colts to 13-3 season after 13-3 season and completely transform the Broncos into title contenders the moment he walked through those doors? Note, the Colts were like 2-14 without Peyton the moment he left.

He and Brady are very similar in the way they approach football.

So please explain how Peyton Manning would somehow mess up what Tom Brady accomplished?

You're acting like the Pats would just be utter trash with Peyton. Would the Colts win 6 super bowls with Brady? With their crap defense, Mora, Tony Dungy and Jim Caldwell? Brady had Belichick who is arguably the best defensive coordinator of all time winning those super bowls with the Giants and guiding all those incredible Patriot defenses.

Who were the ONLY defenses that could stop Manning at ALL. That's how great a coach he was and how great the players he had on defense were.

The only thing you could say is Peyton's control freak nature would somehow mess it up or maybe he'd run out of time with the neck issue and not be able to play long enough to get to 6 super bowl wins.

But you're being silly in thinking it's laughable to see a scenario where Peyton would be able to get them 6 super bowl wins. I mean it's not like he would have to deal with the best organization in pro sports history or anything....

Manning had the number ranked defense in the league in 2007. He had the number two ranked defense in 2005. In both years the Colts went 0-1 in the playoffs, losing the divisional round game, at home. He had a top ten defense five times in Indy and lost his first playoff game four times in those five years. He had good enough defenses on plenty of occasions in Indianapolis.

 

[Boston Vol]

And nobody was acting like those rosters weren't stacked. They'd have 4 pro bowlers on a defense that finished top 3 in yards and points surrendered. Who needs hindsight to know McGinest, Seau, Bruschi, Seymour, Wilfork, Milloy, Law, Samuel, Mayo, etc. were all stars?

Number of defensive pro bowlers on each super bowl squad:
2001- 2
2003-3
2004-2
2014-1
2016-2
2018-1

 

[n_huffhines]

Number of defensive pro bowlers on each super bowl squad:
2001- 2
2003-3
2004-2
2014-1
2016-2
2018-1

So the pro bowl bids didn't perfectly match up with SB runs, but let's not lose the truth here. How did those defenses rank? 2001 had Milloy, Law, Bruschi, Seymour, Vrabel, and McGinnis....that is a fkn star-studded cast, and that was one of the lower ranked D's among their SB runs. They gave up 13 - 17 points in every playoff game and forced 7 turnovers between the AFCCG and the SB.

 

[UTwild82]

I would love to have seen what Dan Marino could have done with a good team. Or what would have happened if Warren Moon could have had a full career in the NFL with a good team.

 

[lifeisdeep]

Here we go guys

Let's look at what little Tom had in all his super bowl years 2011 on

2011
Wes Welker 1,500 yards (yep all Tom here, Wes was actually a bum and only was open because of Tom Brady)

Or maybe it was because Tom had the best TE tandem in the history of the game?

Gronk and Aaron Hernandez both had around 1,000 yards

Deion Branch had returned with around 700 yards. Edelman and Chad Johnson rounded out the bench.

At RB you had Green-Ellis, Woodhead, Faulk and Ridley.

2014
Legarrette Blount, Vereen, Gray and Ridley at RB.

Gronk, Edelman, Amendola, LaFell, (6'2 big and fast)

Just an insane amount of talent on defense that year including Darrelle Revis who was getting MVP talk at CB.

Pretty much that same group for the next few years just add guys like

Brandin Cooks, Cordarrelle Patterson, Josh Gordon, James White, Martellus Bennett, Sony Michel, Burkhead and all the other guys they utilized so well.

He straight up had as much talent as anybody.

Just the fact that you mentioned Brandon Lafell completely and utterly denudes your argument of all credibility. Lafell was straight trash. Not mitigated trash, not slightly trash, but 100%. Look up his numbers and tell me otherwise.

Several of those offensive laser-deadly weapons you mention glowingly went other places and never did anything. Wonder why that is? Probably the same reason that the Bucs went 7-9 the year before Brady got there and then won the SB his first year there. He drug the skeleton of a team into the second round of the playoffs this year and came within one horrifically bad blitz call by Todd Bowles of beating the best team in the playoffs. Two OL out, top two WRs out, third- and fourth-string WRs out - barely players to field an offense the last two weeks and they came within a play of being in the NFCCG again.

 

[99gator]

Just the fact that you mentioned Brandon Lafell completely and utterly denudes your argument of all credibility. Lafell was straight trash. Not mitigated trash, not slightly trash, but 100%. Look up his numbers and tell me otherwise.

Several of those offensive laser-deadly weapons you mention glowingly went other places and never did anything. Wonder why that is? Probably the same reason that the Bucs went 7-9 the year before Brady got there and then won the SB his first year there. He drug the skeleton of a team into the second round of the playoffs this year and came within one horrifically bad blitz call by Todd Bowles of beating the best team in the playoffs. Two OL out, top two WRs out, third- and fourth-string WRs out - barely players to field an offense the last two weeks and they came within a play of being in the NFCCG again.

I had to look up the names of some of these people. I saw 2014- RB- Gray. I thought "who the hell is gray?" That would be Jonas Gray.

When you are mentioning Shane Vereen, Jonas Gray, etc., as weapons.....you've lost the argument.

 

[KoachKrab127]

Why are people thinking Brady will retire? He’s still an MVP candidate.

 

[99gator]

Why are people thinking Brady will retire? He’s still an MVP candidate.

He's 44 and has nothing to prove.

If he wants to do what he has been and continue to play for the love of the game, fine.

But, if I were Giselle, I'd be like....."dude, you're 44 going on 45. We've got money. You've got every record there is. And your body is still in one piece. What are you doing at this point".

Plus, the "cliff" stuff is true. He's lasted longer than anyone thought he would. However, one day, he won't have it anymore and it would be sad to see Brady go out there and look like a scrub. Go out while you're still an MVP candidate. You don't want to look like Big Ben did this year.

 

[lifeisdeep]

He's 44 and has nothing to prove.

If he wants to do what he has been and continue to play for the love of the game, fine.

But, if I were Giselle, I'd be like....."dude, you're 44 going on 45. We've got money. You've got every record there is. And your body is still in one piece. What are you doing at this point".

Plus, the "cliff" stuff is true. He's lasted longer than anyone thought he would. However, one day, he won't have it anymore and it would be sad to see Brady go out there and look like a scrub. Go out while you're still an MVP candidate. You don't want to look like Big Ben did this year.

I just hate to see it end this way. If the Bucs hadn't incurred all the injuries they'd be headed to the Super Bowl again. I think he has at least another year at this level, and could win another one.

 

[n_huffhines]

Just the fact that you mentioned Brandon Lafell completely and utterly denudes your argument of all credibility. Lafell was straight trash. Not mitigated trash, not slightly trash, but 100%. Look up his numbers and tell me otherwise.

Several of those offensive laser-deadly weapons you mention glowingly went other places and never did anything. Wonder why that is? Probably the same reason that the Bucs went 7-9 the year before Brady got there and then won the SB his first year there. He drug the skeleton of a team into the second round of the playoffs this year and came within one horrifically bad blitz call by Todd Bowles of beating the best team in the playoffs. Two OL out, top two WRs out, third- and fourth-string WRs out - barely players to field an offense the last two weeks and they came within a play of being in the NFCCG again.

What Brady is doing at his age is amazing, but this take on the Bucs is totally wrong, IMO. The 7-9 Bucs were a 12-4 team if their QB didn't come damn near to breaking the INT record. They were totally stacked from the perspective of a free agent QB choosing his best opportunity (I mean, let's be honest. Brady wouldn't have chosen them if they were any old 7-9 team). On top of that, they knocked their 1st 2 picks out of the park, adding Winfield and Wirfs who contributed immediately (both already have a pro bowl bid), and snagged Fournette, Gronk, and AB, too. As somebody who roots against Tom Brady, I was scared to death of that team in the preseason.

And Brady didn't drag a skeleton of a team to the playoffs. They ended up missing a lot of guys come playoff time, but they didn't win 13 games with all these guys missing. It was mostly just bad there at the end when they were beating up on the Panthers x 2, Jets, and Eagles.

I think Brady is coming back. He loves to play and I can't tell that he slowed down at all vs. last year when they won it all.

 

[05_never_again]

What Brady is doing at his age is amazing, but this take on the Bucs is totally wrong, IMO. The 7-9 Bucs were a 12-4 team if their QB didn't come damn near to breaking the INT record. They were totally stacked from the perspective of a free agent QB choosing his best opportunity (I mean, let's be honest. Brady wouldn't have chosen them if they were any old 7-9 team). On top of that, they knocked their 1st 2 picks out of the park, adding Winfield and Wirfs who contributed immediately (both already have a pro bowl bid), and snagged Fournette, Gronk, and AB, too. As somebody who roots against Tom Brady, I was scared to death of that team in the preseason.

And Brady didn't drag a skeleton of a team to the playoffs. They ended up missing a lot of guys come playoff time, but they didn't win 13 games with all these guys missing. It was mostly just bad there at the end when they were beating up on the Panthers x 2, Jets, and Eagles.

I think Brady is coming back. He loves to play and I can't tell that he slowed down at all vs. last year when they won it all.

There is no way in hell he doesn't come back. The only way I could possibly see it is if his body was obviously breaking down on him like Peyton's was there in that final season, and he doesn't appear remotely close to that.

 

[lifeisdeep]

What Brady is doing at his age is amazing, but this take on the Bucs is totally wrong, IMO. The 7-9 Bucs were a 12-4 team if their QB didn't come damn near to breaking the INT record. They were totally stacked from the perspective of a free agent QB choosing his best opportunity (I mean, let's be honest. Brady wouldn't have chosen them if they were any old 7-9 team). On top of that, they knocked their 1st 2 picks out of the park, adding Winfield and Wirfs who contributed immediately (both already have a pro bowl bid), and snagged Fournette, Gronk, and AB, too. As somebody who roots against Tom Brady, I was scared to death of that team in the preseason.

And Brady didn't drag a skeleton of a team to the playoffs. They ended up missing a lot of guys come playoff time, but they didn't win 13 games with all these guys missing. It was mostly just bad there at the end when they were beating up on the Panthers x 2, Jets, and Eagles.

I think Brady is coming back. He loves to play and I can't tell that he slowed down at all vs. last year when they won it all.

Saying that the 7-9 Bucs were a 12-4 team were it not for Jaboo is like saying that a bullfrog would be an eagle if it weren't a frog.

He absolutely drug a skeleton - no team in the league had more injuries to key players this year than the Bucs; probably no other team came close. The starting roster on defense didn't play a full game together this season until yesterday. Yesterday. Lavonte David, their best LB, missed multiple games; all of their starting corners and most of their safeties missed multiple games; Gronk missed games; Fournette missed several games; Rojo, their second-string RB, missed several games; AB missed several before he self-destructed; every one of their WRs missed at least one game, and all of them other than Evans missed multiple games.

 

[95 Vol Alum]

Saying that the 7-9 Bucs were a 12-4 team were it not for Jaboo is like saying that a bullfrog would be an eagle if it weren't a frog.

He absolutely drug a skeleton - no team in the league had more injuries to key players this year than the Bucs; probably no other team came close. The starting roster on defense didn't play a full game together this season until yesterday. Yesterday. Lavonte David, their best LB, missed multiple games; all of their starting corners and most of their safeties missed multiple games; Gronk missed games; Fournette missed several games; Rojo, their second-string RB, missed several games; AB missed several before he self-destructed; every one of their WRs missed at least one game, and all of them other than Evans missed multiple games.

The Titans played more players this year than any team in NFL history, I believe.

 

[n_huffhines]

Saying that the 7-9 Bucs were a 12-4 team were it not for Jaboo is like saying that a bullfrog would be an eagle if it weren't a frog.

Ask yourself why Brady chose the Bucs over, the 9-7 Titans, the 8-8 Bears, or the 7-9 Jets, Broncos, or Colts? Those are the teams that finished as good or better than the Bucs and didn't have a $25M QB on the books.

He absolutely drug a skeleton - no team in the league had more injuries to key players this year than the Bucs; probably no other team came close. The starting roster on defense didn't play a full game together this season until yesterday. Yesterday. Lavonte David, their best LB, missed multiple games; all of their starting corners and most of their safeties missed multiple games; Gronk missed games; Fournette missed several games; Rojo, their second-string RB, missed several games; AB missed several before he self-destructed; every one of their WRs missed at least one game, and all of them other than Evans missed multiple games.

They were among the more injured teams, but I don't think the way it shook out was as devastating to their season as you make it out to be. They have so many weapons and you can have 2 out at a time, and be fine. They have so many defensive playmakers, you can have 2 out at a time and still be fine.

They finished 5th in points surrendered, for crying out loud. That's damn impressive for a skeleton of a defense.

 

[ABINGDON VOL FAN]

Because Peyton and Belichick would have completely clashed personality wise. Playing for Belichick is extremely hard. Look at Peyton’s coaches after Mora. Dungy, Caldwell, Fox, Kubiak. Low, easy keel guys that basically let Peyton do whatever he want on offense. Not sure Peyton would like playing for Belichick.

Peyton and Belichek were perfectionists. It would be a perfect match. Lots of mutual respect between the two.

 

[ABINGDON VOL FAN]

Manning had the number ranked defense in the league in 2007. He had the number two ranked defense in 2005. In both years the Colts went 0-1 in the playoffs, losing the divisional round game, at home. He had a top ten defense five times in Indy and lost his first playoff game four times in those five years. He had good enough defenses on plenty of occasions in Indianapolis.

Rarely did he have a physical D that could match up well with the Patriots. A Bob Sanders led defense was the only time they could match up physically.