Trump Is an Ideological Authoritarian

#177
#177
lawgator1 said:
I believe its more like high 8s at around 100k, and about 12 % at 200k, but I get your point. Still, if the average tax liability is 8k, giving them a 2-3k annual cut, and restoring slightly higher rates for the over 500k bracket to pay for it = a broader recovery, more sustainable.
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It always depends on your definition of middle class which is hard since money goes further in different parts of the country. The point though is that middle class tax rates aren't really any higher than they've ever been. The system is and always has been very regressive.
 
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#179
#179
GAVol said:
It always depends on your definition of middle class which is hard since money goes further in different parts of the country. The point though is that middle class tax rates aren't really any higher than they've ever been. The system is and always has been very regressive.
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Right but I'm not advocating for status quo. I want them to buy a new car 6 months earlier than they would do so otherwise. I want them to choose to fly from Detroit to the beach, rather than drive. Buy a new fridge with an ice maker in the door rather than one with the tray in the freezer.
 
#180
#180
lawgator1 said:
In theory you are of course correct. Obviously, lower taxes for everyone would spur growth. But we do not have that luxury. We have to pick and choose our battles. Not surprisingly, Trump decided to give the investment class more money. That has caused the stock market to boom, and of course all sorts of trickle down proponents have been, falsely, claiming that the money will filter down to the middle class and spur demand and sustained growth.

Just not happening. The wealthy grow wealthier. The middle class tread water. This is no way to run an airline.
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What makes you say that? The Laffer curve is a theory that suggests we can cut taxes and grow tax revenue, and the reverse is also true. Increasing taxes does not necessarily grow tax revenue. In practice, the last 50-60 years of history shows that we raise taxes and create a blip in revenue, but then it normalizes and we always return to tax revenues of around 18-19% of GDP. If you are interested in increasing revenues, you have to grow GDP, and cutting taxes is a great way to grow GDP.
 
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#181
#181
n_huffhines said:
What makes you say that? The Laffer curve is a theory that suggests we can cut taxes and grow tax revenue, and the reverse is also true. Increasing taxes does not necessarily grow tax revenue. In practice, the last 50-60 years of history shows that we raise taxes and create a blip in revenue, but then it normalizes and we always return to tax revenues of around 18-19% of GDP. If you are interested in increasing revenues, you have to grow GDP, and cutting taxes is a great way to grow GDP.
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Winner winner, chicken dinner

I've never understood the theory that we can engineer policy and tax and redistribute our way to growth when you can look at historical models and actually see that revenue ends up in the same place.
 
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#182
#182
n_huffhines said:
What makes you say that? The Laffer curve is a theory that suggests we can cut taxes and grow tax revenue, and the reverse is also true. Increasing taxes does not necessarily grow tax revenue. In practice, the last 50-60 years of history shows that we raise taxes and create a blip in revenue, but then it normalizes and we always return to tax revenues of around 18-19% of GDP. If you are interested in increasing revenues, you have to grow GDP, and cutting taxes is a great way to grow GDP.
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Do tax cuts go under the same time delay shift?

Because in FY18 tax revenue was not up
 
#184
#184
n_huffhines said:
What makes you say that? The Laffer curve is a theory that suggests we can cut taxes and grow tax revenue, and the reverse is also true. Increasing taxes does not necessarily grow tax revenue. In practice, the last 50-60 years of history shows that we raise taxes and create a blip in revenue, but then it normalizes and we always return to tax revenues of around 18-19% of GDP. If you are interested in increasing revenues, you have to grow GDP, and cutting taxes is a great way to grow GDP.
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First, cutting taxes for who, exactly?

Second, its not just a question of the final GDP number. It is what is driving any growth that counts

Cutting corporate rates like we did creates a sugar high because it allows some to recapture overseas profits and to buy back stock, increasing stock prices. But that only lasts so long. Whirlpool may cut its outstanding shares by 10 milion bought back and thereby increase the value of the remaining 50 million shares. But if people don't buy new washers and dryers, that increased valuation is short lived.
 
#185
#185
LouderVol said:
Do tax cuts go under the same time delay shift?

Because in FY18 tax revenue was not up
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It's a good question, I'm not totally sure, though I would guess it's a similar phenomenon. Remember, we have had income tax cuts, but we've also had tax increases in other areas (for example, tariffs). Did our tax policy changes benefit us on the net? I'm not sure.
 
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#186
#186
lawgator1 said:
First, cutting taxes for who, exactly?

Second, its not just a question of the final GDP number. It is what is driving any growth that counts

Cutting corporate rates like we did creates a sugar high because it allows some to recapture overseas profits and to buy back stock, increasing stock prices. But that only lasts so long. Whirlpool may cut its outstanding shares by 10 milion bought back and thereby increase the value of the remaining 50 million shares. But if people don't buy new washers and dryers, that increased valuation is short lived.
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Everyone
 
#187
#187
GAVol said:
Winner winner, chicken dinner

I've never understood the theory that we can engineer policy and tax and redistribute our way to growth when you can look at historical models and actually see that revenue ends up in the same place.
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Tax and redistribution seems to work pretty much the same as Keynesian economics ... which means it fails every time, but there are always the diehards who claim it's because we didn't take a deep enough dive.
 
#188
#188
AM64 said:
How much of that $1.9T is a reduction in withholding? We could do absolutely nothing ... not one damn new piece of legislation, and the deficit would increase because of the previous legislative and regulatory albatrosses hung around our necks. All that social engineering is the gift that keeps on giving ... like herpes or even more true, a huge snowball rolling down a very long snow covered slope. The question is simply whether we get mowed down by the snow boulder or the avalanche it triggers.
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Withholding? Really? That's your response? Man up bro, just admit it was a scam from the start and you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.
 
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#189
#189
n_huffhines said:
It's a good question, I'm not totally sure, though I would guess it's a similar phenomenon. Remember, we have had income tax cuts, but we've also had tax increases in other areas (for example, tariffs). Did our tax policy changes benefit us on the net? I'm not sure.
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Exactly. People too often forget that you can't measure the effect of one variable accurately if you can't isolate it from all the other variables affecting the measurable quantity.
 
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#190
#190
n_huffhines said:
It's a good question, I'm not totally sure, though I would guess it's a similar phenomenon. Remember, we have had income tax cuts, but we've also had tax increases in other areas (for example, tariffs). Did our tax policy changes benefit us on the net? I'm not sure.
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Yeah when you look at whole picture I think Trump increased the burden on everyone.

What's funny is the same people complaining about the rich getting cuts complain about the tariffs too. Trump jumps on both sides of the argument and he is still bad/good completely depending on the letter behind his name.
 
#191
#191
TN Ribs said:
Withholding? Really? That's your response? Man up bro, just admit it was a scam from the start and you fell for it hook, line, and sinker.
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Is the current total tax withholding the government is taking in up or down? I can guarantee you that obligations due to past legislation are up and will continue to go that way unless the total population shrinks dramatically, and even that would be determined by the number of people paying income taxes vs those receiving payments from the government.
 
#192
#192
AM64 said:
Exactly. People too often forget that you can't measure the effect of one variable accurately if you can't isolate it from all the other variables affecting the measurable quantity.
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And this is exactly why I wish we had single term limits. At the very best a politician will only act in the interest of a segment of his voter base, the rest of the country be damned. If people were more aware of the variables and side effects of certain pieces of legislation ( China Tarrifs ) they'd probably be less inclined to drink up the koolaid
 
#193
#193
I oppose Trump on a lot of economic policies, but he's also going in the right direction with some things.

It's funny where this thread went, which reminds me of an all-out authoritarian in history who actually made things indisputably better for his country in the long run. Pinochet was a POS and a murderer, but he is the biggest reason why Chile is the strongest economy in Latin America.
 
#194
#194
AM64 said:
How much of that $1.9T is a reduction in withholding? We could do absolutely nothing ... not one damn new piece of legislation, and the deficit would increase because of the previous legislative and regulatory albatrosses hung around our necks. All that social engineering is the gift that keeps on giving ... like herpes or even more true, a huge snowball rolling down a very long snow covered slope. The question is simply whether we get mowed down by the snow boulder or the avalanche it triggers.
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Now that your boy has been outed as fiscally irresponsible as those you've railed against in the past, it's excuse after excuse.

Funny, when the other side is in charge - it's always and only their fault. No ifs, ands or buts.

I remember when the "conservatives" used to at least pretend to care about the deficit. Remind me again, who was the last president to have a balanced budget?
 
#196
#196
n_huffhines said:
I oppose Trump on a lot of economic policies, but he's also going in the right direction with some things.

It's funny where this thread went, which reminds me of an all-out authoritarian in history who actually made things indisputably better for his country in the long run. Pinochet was a POS and a murderer, but he is the biggest reason why Chile is the strongest economy in Latin America.
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It went the way it did not because they're aren't valid ways too criticize Trump, but because the radical left and it's sycophant media is so disingenuous in the way they do so. For instance if you wanted to tell me that building a giant Mexican border wall is an irresponsible financial decision I may agree with you, but the left isn't interested in reasoned debate. They go straight to these no sense Hitler comparisons, as if border security and Genocide are somehow similar.
 
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#200
#200
TN Ribs said:
Speaking of Healthcare, how's Trump's Healthcare plan coming along? That's right, he doesn't have one. What else you got?
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I'm not saying healthcare doesn't have problems, but I will say healthcare is an individual responsibility and not a governmental responsibility. In that light doing nothing is far better than making what was worse. Too bad we can't just erase Obama's folly; but like many flops the federal government has put in place, removing them is virtually impossible because of the damage and the intrusiveness ... you can easily pull a twig out of the ground but not an ugly, twisted, poorly placed tree once the roots are established.
 
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