TrumPutinGate

[BowlBrother85]

Do you know the difference between "proof" and "probable cause"?

Yes. In the context of warrants, probable cause is information sufficient to warrant a prudent person's belief that the wanted individual had committed a crime or that evidence of a crime or contraband would be found in a search. Probable cause is a stronger standard of evidence than reasonable suspicion but weaker than what is required to secure a criminal conviction... Proof is the evidence uncovered from the search itself which is compelling enough to secure the conviction. Hope that helps!

 

[armchair]

I'm sure someone will be charged, Manafort and or Flynn willl most likely be charged with something completely unrelated to Russian collusion or the election. The Dems and their lemmings will celebrate it as some tremendous feat of justice while they use it in the 2020 campaign.

You don't really pay attention to facts and reality, do you? The attorney general at the time said that Flynn had been "compromised" by the Russians. He told the Russians Trump wanted to drop U.S. sanctions against them. Our president --Mr. America First--sucking up to an enemy nation run a dictator. Trump asked the Russians to hack Clinton's email //during the campaign//. Who does that? Manafort is a longtime sleaze who worked for several pro-Russian cronies and thugs, including men tight with Putin, in Ukraine and elsewhere. There is a reason he is a focal point of the investigation.

 

[hog88]

Who lied under oath and about what?

Don't know, just pointing out you can't lie under oath. Possibly Comey and Clapper did about the FISA warrants but I haven't had a chance to dig into it.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Yes. In the context of warrants, probable cause is information sufficient to warrant a prudent person's belief that the wanted individual had committed a crime or that evidence of a crime or contraband would be found in a search. Probable cause is a stronger standard of evidence than reasonable suspicion but weaker than what is required to secure a criminal conviction... Proof is the evidence uncovered from the search itself which is compelling enough to secure the conviction. Hope that helps!

You're the one that misused the terms. Don't get snippy just because I pointed it out. It's a bad look.

 

[BowlBrother85]

You're the one that misused the terms. Don't get snippy just because I pointed it out. It's a bad look.

??? I didn't misuse the terms.

 

[hog88]

This is a big step for you hog. Is reality sobering you up? You've gone from nothing to see here to two Trump cronies will likely be charged with crimes. Unrelated to Russian collusion? Maybe, maybe not. But Mueller now has emails from Manafort offering briefings to Putin's pal Oleg Deripaska on nominee Tump's campaign. Those emails were sent from Manafort's Trump Campaign email address. That's a pretty strong indication that there was high level contact with the Russians during the campaign. We don't know what else Mueller may have but I suspect there's more to come.

Not sobering up to anything, it's just reality. Muller isn't going to spend possibly years and millions of dollars to say "oh well" we found nothing. They'll charge someone for something even it's as minor as jaywalking.

 

[hog88]

and it isn't since the point here is that Trump had unethical motives for firing him, your original comment about him being a bigger slimeball than Trump remains just a tiny bit off the mark....the usual quip with no basis in reality.

Prove the unethical motives. When Clinton, Bush and Obama fired most all US attorneys when they assumed office, did they all have unethical motives?

 

[armchair]

The conservatives on the board would rather not be reminded that the voted for a complete sleaze who has made a complete mockery of the presidency--a man who during and after the election couldn't stop slobbering about the dictator who runs an enemy nation. Took Putin's side on the hacking issue! Still does. Lied about illegal voting, thereby damaging the integrity of our election system, which is EXACTLY WHAT RUSSIA aims to do. Trump is both a massive idiot and a massive creep. It's pretty rare to see someone who is both--and when he's sitting in the White House....oh, my.

 

[Orange_Crush]

If they didn't either have proof of a crime or proof that Paul Manafort was acting as a foreign agent they would not have been able to obtain a FISA warrant.

Do you know the difference between "proof" and "probable cause"?

Yes. In the context of warrants, probable cause is information sufficient to warrant a prudent person's belief that the wanted individual had committed a crime or that evidence of a crime or contraband would be found in a search. Probable cause is a stronger standard of evidence than reasonable suspicion but weaker than what is required to secure a criminal conviction... Proof is the evidence uncovered from the search itself which is compelling enough to secure the conviction. Hope that helps!

??? I didn't misuse the terms.

Sigh...

Probable cause does not equal proof. The fact that they obtained a FISA warrant isn't proof that they had, well, proof. It is merely proof that they were able to get a judge to sign off on a warrant.

They may have had some sort of evidence that created probable cause in a judge's mind but--again, even by the standards of your second post--that does not mean they had proof of anything.

I'll say it again. Stop getting snippy when you're wrong. It's a poor look, whether you care or not.

 

[Mick]

You're the one that misused the terms. Don't get snippy just because I pointed it out. It's a bad look.

It's you again doing your same s**t.

 

[MT LeConte]

Not sobering up to anything, it's just reality. Muller isn't going to spend possibly years and millions of dollars to say "oh well" we found nothing. They'll charge someone for something even it's as minor as jaywalking.

Probably won't charge anyone with jaywalking. But charging someone with obstruction and violation of the Logan Act is a possibility..

You know, Trump brought this on himself. Had he not fired Comey there would be no Special Prosecutor and this might be over by now. At least the collusion part. I believe Manafort and possibly Flynn would have gone down anyway.

 

[BowlBrother85]

Sigh...

Probable cause does not equal proof. The fact that they obtained a FISA warrant isn't proof that they had, well, proof. It is merely proof that they were able to get a judge to sign off on a warrant.

They may have had some sort of evidence that created probable cause in a judge's mind but--again, even by the standards of your second post--that does not mean they had proof of anything.

I'll say it again. Stop getting snippy when you're wrong. It's a poor look, whether you care or not.

LOL! Okay, I should have said 'evidence sufficient enough to believe a crime may have been committed' in that post. I was responding to a post which suggested that the surveillance of Manafort was done arbitrarily.

 

[hog88]

Probably won't charge anyone with jaywalking. But charging someone with obstruction and violation of the Logan Act is a possibility..

You know, Trump brought this on himself. Had he not fired Comey there would be no Special Prosecutor and this might be over by now. At least the collusion part. I believe Manafort and possibly Flynn would have gone down anyway.

Comey should have been fired on inauguration day, either Trump or Hillary's. Personally, I'm glad they appointed a SP. I just wish they would have done so with some control, right now Muller is operating on a blank check and is free to act as some sort of secret police.

Yes, I was a tad over dramatic with the jaywalking but the point remains. I believe any charges levied will be completely unrelated to Muller's original mission.

 

[MT LeConte]

Comey should have been fired on inauguration day, either Trump or Hillary's. Personally, I'm glad they appointed a SP. I just wish they would have done so with some control, right now Muller is operating on a blank check and is free to act as some sort of secret police.

Yes, I was a tad over dramatic with the jaywalking but the point remains. I believe any charges levied will be completely unrelated to Muller's original mission.

Mueller appears to be acting within the bounds of Rod Rosenstein's written orders.

Item (ii) under section (b) directs Mueller to "investigate any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation".


Copy of letter:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...t-Mueller-Special-Counsel-Russia.html?mcubz=1

 

[hog88]

Mueller appears to be acting within the bounds of Rod Rosenstein's written orders.

Item (ii) under section (b) directs Mueller to "investigate any matters that arose or may arise from the investigation".


Copy of letter:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...t-Mueller-Special-Counsel-Russia.html?mcubz=1

Yeah, no ****. The letter should have been more direct and instituted some control.

 

[FLVOL_79]

The conservatives on the board would rather not be reminded that the voted for a complete sleaze who has made a complete mockery of the presidency--a man who during and after the election couldn't stop slobbering about the dictator who runs an enemy nation. Took Putin's side on the hacking issue! Still does. Lied about illegal voting, thereby damaging the integrity of our election system, which is EXACTLY WHAT RUSSIA aims to do. Trump is both a massive idiot and a massive creep. It's pretty rare to see someone who is both--and when he's sitting in the White House....oh, my.

Only person slobbering here is you Doofy.

 

[luthervol]

Prove the unethical motives. When Clinton, Bush and Obama fired most all US attorneys when they assumed office, did they all have unethical motives?

If they told any of them that they would not be fired, called them multiple times trying to establish a "friendship", and then fired them once it was evident that the friendship attempt was being rejected, PLUS this person also represented their district and was in the middle of a number of investigations that involved them and/or their associates......then I would EMPHATICALLY say that is had all the appearances of being unethical.

 

[hog88]

If they told any of them that they would not be fired, called them multiple times trying to establish a "friendship", and then fired them once it was evident that the friendship attempt was being rejected, PLUS this person also represented their district and was in the middle of a number of investigations that involved them and/or their associates......then I would EMPHATICALLY say that is had all the appearances of being unethical.

You've heard one side of the story from a political activist (Bharara). And he has nothing to back up his claims.

 

[carlos86]

good to know the FBI can snoop on someone for over 2 years with no proof of a crime, but don't let that get in the way if the witch hunt

I'm pretty sure it's the FBI's job to keep track of foreign agents. And Manafort was a foreign agent.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Obviously only time will tell. If you went back through this thread from the beginning, you would see how many things that you guys claimed would never happen have already happened.

I say trump is gone within the next 302 days.

302?
Are you a ford guy?

That's just it nothing has happened.
Just like the Clintons who were dirty as **** nothing will happen.

Maybe we will have an impeachment like slick Willy but the net result was nothing changed

 

[theFallGuy]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. The Department of Justice presents the evidence to the FISA court.

when it was run by Obama cronies

 

[DC_Vol]

The conservatives on the board would rather not be reminded that the voted for a complete sleaze who has made a complete mockery of the presidency--a man who during and after the election couldn't stop slobbering about the dictator who runs an enemy nation. Took Putin's side on the hacking issue! Still does. Lied about illegal voting, thereby damaging the integrity of our election system, which is EXACTLY WHAT RUSSIA aims to do. Trump is both a massive idiot and a massive creep. It's pretty rare to see someone who is both--and when he's sitting in the White House....oh, my.

Next thing you know, he'll make a trip to Russia and try to reset relations with a toy button.

 

[MT LeConte]

Yeah, no ****. The letter should have been more direct and instituted some control.

What kind of control? If you find evidence of a crime just ignore it?

That's like telling a cop if you find drugs in his house don't go looking for cash or guns.

 

[volinbham]

What kind of control? If you find evidence of a crime just ignore it?

That's like telling a cop if you find drugs in his house don't go looking for cash or guns.

Actually, the scope could have been (and should have been) much more limited.

If you find evidence of something outside the scope that can go through established channels rather than vesting the prosecutorial authority in the SP.

 

[lawgator1]

Facebook agreeing to turn over the ads that the Russians bought could be very interesting.

1) do they show a pattern of trying to get Trump elected?

2) are they matched with or connected to ads bought by others? For example did the Trump campaign run the same or similar ads?