TrumPutinGate

#18,454
#18,454
volinbham said:
80% proven true? Could you provide the content that has been proven true and show a statement from law enforcement demonstrating that?
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Here's a good primer, though I don't know if I have any actual printed up certificates from the FBI on them.

Here's what's true in the infamous Trump-Russia dossier

Dossier Claim: Russia Meddled
Revelation:
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The U.S. intelligence apparatus concluded that Russia interfered in 2016’s election in a report released in January 2017. Though Steele’s name is not mentioned in that report, it does back up his reporting that Russia was actively interfering in the election process.

Dossier Claim: Russia Had Dirt on Clinton and DNC
Revelation: Much of the dossier is devoted not only to Trump but to Russia’s—specifically Putin’s—distaste for former Secretary of State Clinton. “Putin motivated by fear and hatred of Hillary Clinton,” one line of the dossier reads. Another line said: “The two sides had a mutual interest in defeating Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, whom President Putin apparently both hated and feared.”
Steele later cites one source as stating Russia that was behind the leak of hacked Democratic National Committee (DNC) emails to WikiLeaks.
The U.S. intelligence community confirmed not only that Russia had tried to meddle in the election but that it was the source of the hacked DNC emails released by WikiLeaks.

Dossier Claim: Putin Was in Charge
Revelation: On the very first page of the dossier, Steele explains that the election meddling was “endorsed by Putin” and that the effort was “both supported and directed” by him. The U.S. intelligence report reached the same conclusion, writing that Putin “ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the presidential election.” According to Steele’s sources, Putin and Russia had been cultivating Trump for “at least 5 years.”

Dossier Claim: Mr. Cohen Goes to Prague
Revelation: The president’s former personal attorney, Michael Cohen, was accused in the dossier of meeting with “Kremlin representatives” in Prague in August 2016. Cohen has repeatedly denied traveling to the Czech capital, but McClatchy last month reported that Mueller had evidence the trip happened.
The report stated that Mueller’s team discovered proof Cohen got to Prague through Germany. The two countries are part of a number of European nations with an open borders agreement that allows undocumented travel. However, no other media outlet has been able to confirm McClatchy’s reporting.


Dossier Claim: Russian Diplomat Was a Spy
Revelation: Steele also claimed that Russia was worried a diplomat named Mikhail Kalugin was heavily involved in the meddling operation. Afraid he would be exposed, Russia pulled Kalugin out of Washington on “short notice.” Steele actually misspelled Kalugin’s name, but the U.S. government had identified Kalugin as a Russian spy, the BBC reported in March.

Dossier Claim: Page Met With Russians
Revelation: Carter Page previously denied having met with Russian government officials during his trip to Russia in July 2016, but he admitted to the meeting while speaking to the House Intelligence Committee last November. Page was a foreign policy adviser to Trump’s campaign and in June 2016 delivered a speech in Washington praising Putin. And as early as September 2016, U.S. officials were looking into Page’s contacts in Russia, Yahoo News reported.

Dossier Claim: Manafort Received Payment for Work in Ukraine
Revelation: Paul Manafort, who is facing serious charges from Mueller’s team, worked extensively in Ukraine for years before Trump hired him as campaign chairman in 2016. The longtime Washington lobbyist received $12.7 million from the political party of former pro-Russia Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych between 2007 and 2012, The New York Times reported on August 14, 2016. Manafort resigned from the campaign after that report.
Steele’s dossier states that Yanukovych and Putin met the day after the story broke, and the former made assurances to the latter that no trail could be found.
“This had been held in secret on 15 August near Volgograd, Russia, and the Western media revelations about Manafort and Ukraine had featured prominently on the agenda,” the dossier says about the meeting. “Yanukovych had confided in Putin that he did authorize and order substantial kick-back payments to Manafort as alleged but sought to reassure him that there was no document trail left behind which could provide clear evidence of this.”
In April 2017, financial records unearthed by the Associated Press confirmed that at least $1.2 million went to Manafort’s company from Ukraine.
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#18,455
#18,455
lawgator1 said:
Not yet. But that is going to come from the highest sources. By definition it is highly secret. We may never know it for sure because to tell us would expose the most important intelligence we have.

The exact motive for all his bending over backwards for Putin, his constantly selling us out to them, the lies, the make nice to them at every turn, thwarting sanctions ....

There's a reason for that. If you think it's just because Trump earnestly believes its good policy, all that proves is that he's an imbecile.

I think at this point that we all know better. They have the goods on him.
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But doesn't this have to be provable with a preponderance of evidence? Dont they need a confession or papertrail or something concrete?
 
#18,456
#18,456
volinbham said:
80% proven true? Could you provide the content that has been proven true and show a statement from law enforcement demonstrating that?
Click to expand...
This is a portion of what has been confirmed as being true from the Steele Dossier:

Dossier claim: Russia meddled in the 2016 U.S. Presidential election to assist the Trump campaign.
Facts: The U.S. intelligence apparatus has concluded that Russia interfered in the 2016's election in a report released in January 2017.

Dossier claim: Russia had dirt on Hillary Clinton and the DNC.
Facts: Much of the dossier is devoted not only to Trump but to Russia's - specifically Putin's - distaste for former Secretary of State Clinton. The U.S. intelligence community confirmed that Russia was the source of the hacked DNC e-mails released by WikiLeaks.

Dossier claim: Putin was in charge of the Russian meddling.
Facts: The U.S, intelligence report reached the conclusion that Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the presidential election. According to Steele's sources, Putin and Russia had been cultivating Trump as an asset for at least 5 years.

Dossier claim: Michael Cohen met with Kremlin representatives in Prague in August of 2016.
Facts: The President's former attorney, Michael Cohen, was accused in the dossier of meeting with "Kremlin representatives" in Prague in August of 2016. Although Cohen has denied it, in May, McClatchy reported that Robert Mueller has evidence that the trip did in fact happen. The report stated that Mueller's team discovered proof Cohen got to Prague through Germany. The two countries are part of a number of European nations with an open borders agreement that allows undocumented travel.

Dossier claim: Russian diplomat Mikhail Kalugin was a spy.
Facts: Christopher Steele claimed that Russia was worried that a diplomat named Mikhail Kalugin who was heavily involved in the meddling operation would be exposed. Russia pulled Kalugin out of Washington on short notice. Steele did misspell Kalugin's name in the dossier (which some critics pounced on to imply that it discredited the claim itself) but the U.S. government has identified Kalugin as a Russian spy, the BBC reported in March.

Dossier claim: Carter Page met with Russians.
Facts: Carter Page previously denied having met with Russian government officials during his trip to Russia in July 2016, but he admitted to the meeting while speaking to the House Intelligence Committee last November. Page was a foreign policy adviser to Trump's campaign and in June 2016 delivered a speech in Washington praising Putin. As early as September of 2016, U.S. officials were looking into Page's contacts in Russia, Yahoo news reported.

Dossier claim: Paul Manafort received payment for work in Ukraine; Putin tried to cover it up.
Facts: Paul Manafort worked extensively in Ukraine for years before Trump hired him as campaign chairman in 2016. Manafort received $12.7 million from the political party of former pro-Russia Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych between 2007 and 2012, The New York Times reported on August 14, 2016. Manafort resigned from the campaign after that report. Steele's dossier states that Yanukoyvich and Putin met the day after the story broke, and Yanukovych made Putin assurances that no trail could be found. In April 2017, financial records unearthed by the Associated Press confirmed that at least $1.2 million went to Manafort's company from Ukraine.

There is a lot more but that is a good start, anyway. Critics of the Steele dossier only focus on the fact that the most salacious details are unconfirmed but in doing so, they really do miss what is most important in the big picture... and that is probably done by design.
 
#18,460
#18,460
BowlBrother85 said:
This is a portion of what has been confirmed as being true from the Steele Dossier:

Dossier claim: Russia meddled in the 2016 U.S. Presidential election to assist the Trump campaign.
Facts: The U.S. intelligence apparatus has concluded that Russia interfered in the 2016's election in a report released in January 2017.

Dossier claim: Russia had dirt on Hillary Clinton and the DNC.
Facts: Much of the dossier is devoted not only to Trump but to Russia's - specifically Putin's - distaste for former Secretary of State Clinton. The U.S. intelligence community confirmed that Russia was the source of the hacked DNC e-mails released by WikiLeaks.

Dossier claim: Putin was in charge of the Russian meddling.
Facts: The U.S, intelligence report reached the conclusion that Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the presidential election. According to Steele's sources, Putin and Russia had been cultivating Trump as an asset for at least 5 years.

Dossier claim: Michael Cohen met with Kremlin representatives in Prague in August of 2016.
Facts: The President's former attorney, Michael Cohen, was accused in the dossier of meeting with "Kremlin representatives" in Prague in August of 2016. Although Cohen has denied it, in May, McClatchy reported that Robert Mueller has evidence that the trip did in fact happen. The report stated that Mueller's team discovered proof Cohen got to Prague through Germany. The two countries are part of a number of European nations with an open borders agreement that allows undocumented travel.

Dossier claim: Russian diplomat Mikhail Kalugin was a spy.
Facts: Christopher Steele claimed that Russia was worried that a diplomat named Mikhail Kalugin who was heavily involved in the meddling operation would be exposed. Russia pulled Kalugin out of Washington on short notice. Steele did misspell Kalugin's name in the dossier (which some critics pounced on to imply that it discredited the claim itself) but the U.S. government has identified Kalugin as a Russian spy, the BBC reported in March.

Dossier claim: Carter Page met with Russians.
Facts: Carter Page previously denied having met with Russian government officials during his trip to Russia in July 2016, but he admitted to the meeting while speaking to the House Intelligence Committee last November. Page was a foreign policy adviser to Trump's campaign and in June 2016 delivered a speech in Washington praising Putin. As early as September of 2016, U.S. officials were looking into Page's contacts in Russia, Yahoo news reported.

Dossier claim: Paul Manafort received payment for work in Ukraine; Putin tried to cover it up.
Facts: Paul Manafort worked extensively in Ukraine for years before Trump hired him as campaign chairman in 2016. Manafort received $12.7 million from the political party of former pro-Russia Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych between 2007 and 2012, The New York Times reported on August 14, 2016. Manafort resigned from the campaign after that report. Steele's dossier states that Yanukoyvich and Putin met the day after the story broke, and Yanukovych made Putin assurances that no trail could be found. In April 2017, financial records unearthed by the Associated Press confirmed that at least $1.2 million went to Manafort's company from Ukraine.

There is a lot more but that is a good start, anyway. Critics of the Steele dossier only focus on the fact that the most salacious details are unconfirmed but in doing so, they really do miss what is most important in the big picture... and that is probably done by design.
Click to expand...

What % of the dossier does this represent?
 
#18,464
#18,464
BowlBrother85 said:
LOL! I have no idea but I'm not surprised that you want to quibble with percentages. Over time, that dossier has proven to be solid.
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Quibble percentages? LG claims 80% and you followed on. Both of you pointed to 6 claims. That could be 20% as easily as 80% and that's not a quibbling difference.

The claim of proven to be solid depends entirely on how much of it is true.

Why not read through the dossier and show what % has been proven true to bolster your claim rather than just make it up? It's available.
 
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#18,465
#18,465
Notice that those making an issue of exactly what percentage has been proven to be true seem to skip over the fact that the percentage that has been proven false is well-known.

Its zero.

This may be the worst red herring argument of all time by the right. They have screeched and screeched that ONE of the people involved in it was AT ONE point paid to work on it by the Dems. As though that fact alone had any bearing on its truth or falsity.

As time has worn on, what we have learned is that many sources contributed to the fund of knowledge within it, some our most respected allies' intelligence services.

But seize on one guy's role. Ignore the facts contained within it. Ignore the corroboration of the facts.
 
#18,466
#18,466
volinbham said:
What % of the dossier does this represent?
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Those, "facts" are actually hearsay, beliefs and opinions. They are doing nothing more than repeating the same "taker my word for it" claims of those who look to have laundered the dossier through the media to give it the appearance of validity in the first place.

And one should expect that a good liar would weave some truth in with the lies to trick the gullible.
 
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#18,467
#18,467
lawgator1 said:
Notice that those making an issue of exactly what percentage has been proven to be true seem to skip over the fact that the percentage that has been proven false is well-known.

Its zero.

This may be the worst red herring argument of all time by the right. They have screeched and screeched that ONE of the people involved in it was AT ONE point paid to work on it by the Dems. As though that fact alone had any bearing on its truth or falsity.

As time has worn on, what we have learned is that many sources contributed to the fund of knowledge within it, some our most respected allies' intelligence services.

But seize on one guy's role. Ignore the facts contained within it. Ignore the corroboration of the facts.
Click to expand...

Who is trying to prove it false?

The sources are primarily Russian government officials and representatives. They are completely truthful to Steele? Why would they be - it exposes there plan.

As for % I just looked at the dossier - 35 pages with about 17 different entries (typically 2 pages each). Each entry contains 4 - 5 claims. There are easily 70 to 90 claims in the dossier. You provided 6 and call that 80%.

talk about a red herring.
 
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#18,468
#18,468
volinbham said:
Who is trying to prove it false?

The sources are primarily Russian government officials and representatives. They are completely truthful to Steele? Why would they be - it exposes there plan.

As for % I just looked at the dossier - 35 pages with about 17 different entries (typically 2 pages each). Each entry contains 4 - 5 claims. There are easily 70 to 90 claims in the dossier. You provided 6 and call that 80%.

talk about a red herring.
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two-plus-one-equal-ok.gif
 
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#18,469
#18,469
Here's what you are buying into if you believe the Steele Dossier is mostly (80%) true:

The plan to elect Trump began in 2011 and progressed over the years by ensnaring several people that would end up on the campaign team. The plan ran deep and over many years through many people. Then the Russians either decided to let Steele in on the plan (for who knows what reason) or the Russians were so stupid they told Steele about the about this devious plan without realizing they were doing so.

It couldn't be that the Russians were manipulating Steele with bits of real info, plausible but false info and outright made up info. Nah.
 
#18,470
#18,470
volinbham said:
Here's what you are buying into if you believe the Steele Dossier is mostly (80%) true:

The plan to elect Trump began in 2011 and progressed over the years by ensnaring several people that would end up on the campaign team. The plan ran deep and over many years through many people. Then the Russians either decided to let Steele in on the plan (for who knows what reason) or the Russians were so stupid they told Steele about the about this devious plan without realizing they were doing so.

It couldn't be that the Russians were manipulating Steele with bits of real info, plausible but false info and outright made up info. Nah.
Click to expand...

If you had laid this scenario out before Trump was elected, they would have told you it’s batshit crazy.

But I do believe most who are still pushing this nonsense have talked about it so much that they have convinced themselves it’s true.

Trump has truly driven some people crazy. And some of them visit VolNation each day.
 
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#18,471
#18,471
volinbham said:
Who is trying to prove it false?

The sources are primarily Russian government officials and representatives. They are completely truthful to Steele? Why would they be - it exposes there plan.

As for % I just looked at the dossier - 35 pages with about 17 different entries (typically 2 pages each). Each entry contains 4 - 5 claims. There are easily 70 to 90 claims in the dossier. You provided 6 and call that 80%.

talk about a red herring.
Click to expand...
You are trying to take advantage of the fact that nobody has the time to go through every claim, point by point. I listed 7 claims that have been proven to be true. The most significant of which has been verified by the United States intelligence apparatus. Now, can you name even one claim in the Steele dossier which has been proven false?
 
#18,472
#18,472
volinbham said:
Here's what you are buying into if you believe the Steele Dossier is mostly (80%) true:

The plan to elect Trump began in 2011 and progressed over the years by ensnaring several people that would end up on the campaign team. The plan ran deep and over many years through many people. Then the Russians either decided to let Steele in on the plan (for who knows what reason) or the Russians were so stupid they told Steele about the about this devious plan without realizing they were doing so.

It couldn't be that the Russians were manipulating Steele with bits of real info, plausible but false info and outright made up info. Nah.
Click to expand...

No fing way.
 
#18,473
#18,473
BowlBrother85 said:
You are trying to take advantage of the fact that nobody has the time to go through every claim, point by point. I listed 7 claims that have been proven to be true. The most significant of which has been verified by the United States intelligence apparatus. Now, can you name even one claim in the Steele dossier which has been proven false?
Click to expand...

Just be truthful, you haven't found an article to copy and paste that goes through every point.
 
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#18,474
#18,474
BowlBrother85 said:
You are trying to take advantage of the fact that nobody has the time to go through every claim, point by point. I listed 7 claims that have been proven to be true. The most significant of which has been verified by the United States intelligence apparatus. Now, can you name even one claim in the Steele dossier which has been proven false?
Click to expand...

7 out of about 80 claims.

I'm not taking advantage of anything - just pointing that making the ridiculous claim that most of the dossier has been proven true is simply not based in fact. It's pure speculation and you can find no official statement supporting such a claim.

If I were a betting man I'd say the dossier has some true, some complete fantasy and plenty of "near miss" info all designed to look like real intelligence.

Why don't you think Russian officials would lie to Steele? Why would they reveal this 5 year plan to him? I'd say it's more likely they fed him a bunch of BS to muck up the works and have exactly what is going on occur - cast doubt on the Trump presidency to cause division and prevent action. Hell, it has been established that Russia's aim is to create political division - this dossier is a perfect vehicle to support that strategy.
 
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#18,475
#18,475
volinbham said:
7 out of about 80 claims.

I'm not taking advantage of anything - just pointing that making the ridiculous claim that most of the dossier has been proven true is simply not based in fact. It's pure speculation and you can find no official statement supporting such a claim.

If I were a betting man I'd say the dossier has some true, some complete fantasy and plenty of "near miss" info all designed to look like real intelligence.

Why don't you think Russian officials would lie to Steele? Why would they reveal this 5 year plan to him? I'd say it's more likely they fed him a bunch of BS to muck up the works and have exactly what is going on occur - cast doubt on the Trump presidency to cause division and prevent action. Hell, it has been established that Russia's aim is to create political division - this dossier is a perfect vehicle to support that strategy.
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Once again, can you point to even one claim which is verifiably false?
 
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