type of offense debate

#26
#26
Vol8188 said:
I find the assertion that a spread needs a "superior" qb as absurd. Texas Tech under Leach and Hawaii under Jones never had superior qb's. Their qb's were average at best, but the scheme made them look phenomenal
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Three of Texas Tech's "average at best" quarterbacks under Leach were B.J. Symons, Kliff Kingsbury, and Graham Harrell. All 3 spent some time in the NFL, although none achieved much there. I believe Harrell may still be in the league. All 3 won the Sammy Baugh Trophy, which is an award given to the nation's top passer for the year by the Columbus, Ohio Touchdown Club. Other winners have been John Elway, Danny Wuerfel, Ryan Leaf, Landry Jones, and Steve Young.

Symons set the NCAA record of 5,833 yards in a season, Kingsbury was AP Offensive Player of the Year, 9th in Heisman voting, unanimous All Big 12, and completed 67% of his passes for over 5,000 yards in his final season with 45 TD's and only 13 INT's. In 2008, Harrell set the NCAA career TD pass record.

If Leach had only had a qb that was more than "average at best."
 
#27
#27
1972 Grad said:
Three of Texas Tech's "average at best" quarterbacks under Leach were B.J. Symons, Kliff Kingsbury, and Graham Harrell. All 3 spent some time in the NFL, although none achieved much there. I believe Harrell may still be in the league. All 3 won the Sammy Baugh Trophy, which is an award given to the nation's top passer for the year by the Columbus, Ohio Touchdown Club. Other winners have been John Elway, Danny Wuerfel, Ryan Leaf, Landry Jones, and Steve Young.

Symons set the NCAA record of 5,833 yards in a season, Kingsbury was AP Offensive Player of the Year, 9th in Heisman voting, unanimous All Big 12, and completed 67% of his passes for over 5,000 yards in his final season with 45 TD's and only 13 INT's. In 2008, Harrell set the NCAA career TD pass record.

If Leach had only had a qb that was more than "average at best."
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They were drafted due to their stats. They out up those stats due to his system. They were not that good.
 
#28
#28
Spartacavolus said:
You should be able to get under the center and run basic A gap running plays as well. Thing is, seems like cramming a bunch of players close together to get 1 yard with a run doesn't get the yard as often as spreading them out and using speed to hit a gap.
Good analysis though keck.
One thing is you live and die by your qb anyway, imo, whether it's the spread or prostyle. One other thing is that people talk about coaches catching up, but Urban and others have been doing it for years and seldom are stopped. It doesn't get any better than Saban and he and his coaches have opportunities to stop teams the last 3 years and can't, mainly due to qb play.
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Defense is the key. It is not that Alabama couldn't score enough. They didn't make the plays when needed on defense. Bad angles and looked slow. That being said, I believe that what we need to come up with is a power formation package like we do with the wildcat. Run the deep I back , a little deeper hand off maybe run a read play with the RB . Similar to the pistol back formation ,but more old school . Ideal for protecting a lead late in the game. I do miss those 7 and 8 minute drives in the 4th quarter we once were so good at. It was 0* on my front porch about 4 am this morning on the plateau. 17 now.
 
#29
#29
Vol8188 said:
I find the assertion that a spread needs a "superior" qb as absurd. Texas Tech under Leach and Hawaii under Jones never had superior qb's. Their qb's were average at best, but the scheme made them look phenomenal
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Until they played Georgia in the Sugar Bowl where Georgia proceeded to annihilate them! Oh and in case you forgot, we play Georgia every year!
 
#30
#30
Vol8188 said:
They were drafted due to their stats. They out up those stats due to his system. They were not that good.
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Most everybody is drafted due to their stats. Should they be drafted because of their looks?


Turning to June Jones and Hawaii qb's. Two stand out, Colt Brennan and Timmy Chang. Chang 2nd all time yardage, Brennan was Sammy Baugh Trophy winner, held or holds records for most 400 yard passing games, most TD passes in a season, second highest completion percentage, 3rd all time TD passes, 6th all time yardage.

Just a couple more average qb's , who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. I guess you could have put anybody back there behind center.
 
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#31
#31
Look at the NFL the pro style is more of a multiple offense style from a spread em out to a single back an iform Football is constantly changing and there are many ways to do it the best offense is the offense that takes advantage of miss matches and can make adjustments i. The middle of a game and not mis a step
 
#32
#32
1972 Grad said:
Most everybody is drafted due to their stats. Should they be drafted because of their looks?


Turning to June Jones and Hawaii qb's. Two stand out, Colt Brennan and Timmy Chang. Chang 2nd all time yardage, Brennan was Sammy Baugh Trophy winner, held or holds records for most 400 yard passing games, most TD passes in a season, second highest completion percentage, 3rd all time TD passes, 6th all time yardage.

Just a couple more average qb's , who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. I guess you could have put anybody back there behind center.
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How did Colt and Timmy do in the pros? I'm not saying they were chopped liver, but come on, we ain't talking Brady and Manning here. Add in the fact that Hawaii's yearly schedule is pretty conducive to putting up big offensive numbers. It's not like they were facing SEC defenses every week.

The Spread does a good job of evening out the talent gap, especially against bigger, stronger defenses. Teams like Boise State and Hawaii used it to great advantage, and now it has become more "mainstream". It has evolved past the gimmick stage, IMO. And if you have a Cam Newton, it can even win you a Championship. But it can also be used by teams that have less talent and maybe an average QB to make them more competitive against more talented teams.

I'll be curious to see how defensive coordinators adjust in the coming years, and how proponents of the spread react to the adjustments. There are already several flavors of Spread offenses out there.
 
#33
#33
Can't compare college ball and pro ball really. Monte's D still works on pros. Doesn't work at all in college.Two different games still, though Seattle, SF and Philly run some college spread stuff.
 
#34
#34
Brave Volunteer said:
Until they played Georgia in the Sugar Bowl where Georgia proceeded to annihilate them! Oh and in case you forgot, we play Georgia every year!
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Lol I really hope you don't consider this a valid argument?

So if Hawaii was running a pro style offense you believe they would have beat Georgia? Of course not! Hawaii only made it to that game because of their offense, but even a great scheme can only take you so far.
 
#35
#35
VFL1953 said:
How did Colt and Timmy do in the pros? I'm not saying they were chopped liver, but come on, we ain't talking Brady and Manning here. Add in the fact that Hawaii's yearly schedule is pretty conducive to putting up big offensive numbers. It's not like they were facing SEC defenses every week.

The Spread does a good job of evening out the talent gap, especially against bigger, stronger defenses. Teams like Boise State and Hawaii used it to great advantage, and now it has become more "mainstream". It has evolved past the gimmick stage, IMO. And if you have a Cam Newton, it can even win you a Championship. But it can also be used by teams that have less talent and maybe an average QB to make them more competitive against more talented teams.

I'll be curious to see how defensive coordinators adjust in the coming years, and how proponents of the spread react to the adjustments. There are already several flavors of Spread offenses out there.
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As far as how these guys did in the pros, I can name a heck of a lot of good qb's who didn't make it in the pros.

I said that these guys were definitely better than average quarterbacks. If a qb executes exactly what is asked of him, sets numerous records in the process, and leads his team to many victories, I don't see how he can be faulted.

Too many people see only the good plays and fancy throws that a player like Tyler Bray made occasionally, and think that makes him a fantastic qb. Instead, maybe the other guys that I mentioned always got their teammates in the right formations, knew how to read coverages and check off at the line, recognized blitzes, went through their progressions, set their feet properly, threw with touch, executed back shoulder throws, didn't try to force the ball into double coverage, scrambled when necessary to keep a play alive, had pocket awareness, mental and physical toughness, and were able to put their team on their backs, and bring their team back when they were behind.

There is more to it than being able to throw it 60 mph.
 
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#37
#37
Meanwhile we have 4 spread teams in action and the first two tds tonight were long qb runs. Its just too much for the D to handle if your qb can cause damage running.
 
#38
#38
I don't give a damn what kind off offence we run but on 3rd and 1 it would be nice to see the QB line up under center in the I formation and run the ball down the throat of a less talented team and where your OL OUT WEIGH there team by 30 to 40 pound per man, I just don't see why we didn't do that more often this past year, all I heard was how great this OL was and we was going to do this and that but we never got around to it, I know I am old school but damn 3rd and 1 is still 3rd and 1 in 2013, just like it was in 1969 or have I missed something.
 
#41
#41
terrypedigo said:
I don't give a damn what kind off offence we run but on 3rd and 1 it would be nice to see the QB line up under center in the I formation and run the ball down the throat of a less talented team and where your OL OUT WEIGH there team by 30 to 40 pound per man, I just don't see why we didn't do that more often this past year, all I heard was how great this OL was and we was going to do this and that but we never got around to it, I know I am old school but damn 3rd and 1 is still 3rd and 1 in 2013, just like it was in 1969 or have I missed something.
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You have missed something. I was at U.T. in 1969. What has changed is that then we had linemen with a surly disposition like Chip Kell, Phil Fulmer, Don Denbo, Steve Robinson, Ken Delong, etc. to open holes for backs like Curt Watson, Don McLeary, and Steve Wold who ran with the same nasty attitude.
 
#42
#42
With due respect, the DL were also the size of today's middle LB's and weren't near the athletes. Every team is 6'4 300 across the DL with guys that can dunk a basketball. Fulmer never blocked anybody like that.
 
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#43
#43
Spartacavolus said:
With due respect, the DL were also the size of today's middle LB's and weren't near the athletes. Every team is 6'4 300 across the DL with guys that can dunk a basketball. Fulmer never blocked anybody like that.
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Of course not, but when compared to the competition, they were pretty hard nosed. You cannot compare eras in sports. You can only compare the teams and players to their direct competition. I don't think that our current line or running backs have the toughness or desire of those guys.
 
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#44
#44
I think the spread offense has a little to do with less nasty OL as well. They can't just fire off the ball and hit whoever is in front of them.
 
#45
#45
Wylo said:
smart playcalling helps. we didn't seem to have that..

I'm not a complete fan of his style of offense, but he hasn't asked my opinion.

It obviously can work. But be real, without the 5 turnovers, Bama rolls them. So without those defensive playmakers, Oklahoma and their offense wouldn't have mattered.

Hopefully Butch will bring in defensive studs.
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Could you elaborate on the playcalling?

I don't think Bama was up to playing in this game but his point was Oklahomas offense NOT Bamas. Forget the turnovers, Bama couldn't stop them-even force a FG.
 
#46
#46
Spartacavolus said:
I think the spread offense has a little to do with less nasty OL as well. They can't just fire off the ball and hit whoever is in front of them.
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Probably. I was referring to the guy's 3rd and 1 smash mouth football. During the era of the late 60's, I would go to the Student Center to pick up my student tickets , and sometimes they would be in or near the south endzone. From there, I could see the biggest holes opened in the line that I have ever seen.

You could actually have driven a large truck through some of the holes those guys opened. We ran and ran, and occasionally threw it to keep them honest. I would have to look it up, but I don't think that we lost but one home game while I was a student in 67-71 seasons. I was there for 2 extra quarters, so that made 5 fall seasons, and we lost to Auburn 10-9 in 1971 I think.
 
#48
#48
Spartacavolus said:
I think the spread offense has a little to do with less nasty OL as well. They can't just fire off the ball and hit whoever is in front of them.
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I disagree. You can use any blocking scheme from the spread. And zone is more about hitting the man in front of you than power blocking is.
 
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#50
#50
Spartacavolus said:
I think the spread offense has a little to do with less nasty OL as well. They can't just fire off the ball and hit whoever is in front of them.
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This is the dumbest ***damn meme I've heard on this site and that's saying something. You can hit people in the mouth with the zone just as easily as any other blocking scheme. It doesn't make lineman turn into dainty little flowers.
 
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