type of offense debate

[Vol8188]

This is the dumbest ***damn meme I've heard on this site and that's saying something. You can hit people in the mouth with the zone just as easily as any other blocking scheme. It doesn't make lineman turn into dainty little flowers.

Alabama is a zone team, I've never ward anyone call their oline soft.

 

[Spartacavolus]

This is the dumbest ***damn meme I've heard on this site and that's saying something. You can hit people in the mouth with the zone just as easily as any other blocking scheme. It doesn't make lineman turn into dainty little flowers.

Ok. So in the spread at times, the OL isnt trying to figure out who to block versus just driving over the man in front of them?

An old OT that walked thru the T this year with all the older players must've been mistaken when he told me schemes and techniques can affect aggressive blocking, especially when unfamiliar with a system. Thanks for giving me the correct info.

 

[Vol8188]

Ok. So in the spread at times, the OL isnt trying to figure out who to block versus just driving over the man in front of them?

An old OT that walked thru the T this year with all the older players must've been mistaken when he told me schemes and techniques can affect aggressive blocking, especially when unfamiliar with a system. Thanks for giving me the correct info.

Zone schemes are far easier than any man scheme. You simply block an area. If you can't figure out who to block, you probably have an iq lower than your shoe size.

Now if he was talking about the passing game, that may be more logical. A lot of teams will have 5 or 6 different protection schemes. But that's not a spread issue. Confused linemen can happen in any scheme.

 

[Morpheus]

Seems clear to me that the spread offense is the next step in the evolution of american football. Or should say current step, it's rapidly "spreading" across the country. Programs that were traditionally average or worse are winning big with it, even with so-called less talented rosters than the big pro-style teams.

We held on to the pro-style too long, IMO. We missed the initial budding wave of growth when we fired Clawson, while other SEC programs like UF and AU made hay. Now the only SEC teams holding on to the Pro-Style is Georgia and Alabama, the two teams with the biggest recruiting advantages. USC and LSU may be technically pro-style, but they use a lot of spread formation concepts with mobile QB's. But again, those two have enjoyed higher than normal recruiting advantages under their current coaches. Going back to pro-style under kiffin and dooley put us further behind, IMO. Did the same thing to UF when they hired muschamp.

Spread formations and the rules changes to restrict defenses, have given the less talented player new advantages. And we weren't blessed with the same instate talent that Georgia, LSU and Bama has, so we need the spread to help level the playing field. And todays players love playing in a spread, which further helps with recruiting.

 

[Vol8188]

Seems clear to me that the spread offense is the next step in the evolution of american football. Or should say current step, it's rapidly "spreading" across the country. Programs that were traditionally average or worse are winning big with it, even with so-called less talented rosters than the big pro-style teams.

We held on to the pro-style too long, IMO. We missed the initial budding wave of growth when we fired Clawson, while other SEC programs like UF and AU made hay. Now the only SEC teams holding on to the Pro-Style is Georgia and Alabama, the two teams with the biggest recruiting advantages. USC and LSU may be technically pro-style, but they use a lot of spread formation concepts with mobile QB's. But again, those two have enjoyed higher than normal recruiting advantages under their current coaches. Going back to pro-style under kiffin and dooley put us further behind, IMO. Did the same thing to UF when they hired muschamp.

Spread formations and the rules changes to restrict defenses, have given the less talented player new advantages. And we weren't blessed with the same instate talent that Georgia, LSU and Bama has, so we need the spread to help level the playing field. And todays players love playing in a spread, which further helps with recruiting.

USCjr is actually a spread zone read team.

 

[Grizzly Vol]

Always been a fan of the spread. Puts a ton of pressure on a defense to cover in space and can be very effective in opening up the running game. In the end however, no matter what scheme you are in, you have to have the athletes to run and execute the system.

 

[Morpheus]

USCjr is actually a spread zone read team.

Stand corrected.:good!:

 

[orangebloodgmc]

I like an offense with at least one TE who can catch and run-block, and preferably two of em. I like a QB that can throw and run. The more weapons you have in the game, the less the D can guess and load up. This year we weren't able to take advantage of TEs very much. The year before, other teams knew not to worry about our QB running.

 

[Spartacavolus]

I like an offense with at least one TE who can catch and run-block, and preferably two of em. I like a QB that can throw and run. The more weapons you have in the game, the less the D can guess and load up. This year we weren't able to take advantage of TEs very much. The year before, other teams knew not to worry about our QB running.

Cincy's leading receiver in Butch's last year was their TE. We just got down to one TE and he was dragging his leg all year. Another reason for lack of qb and receiver development, imo. No TE in the offense for a true freshman qb makes it even tougher.

 

[thadolphinman]

With addition of two pretty good tight ends, I think you are going to see more TE/H-Back under center zone run plays. I think Hurd would be absolutely deadly in some stretch plays. I can just imagine him now, one cut and up the middle of the field trucking a safety for a touchdown.

 

[VFL1953]

As far as how these guys did in the pros, I can name a heck of a lot of good qb's who didn't make it in the pros.

I said that these guys were definitely better than average quarterbacks. If a qb executes exactly what is asked of him, sets numerous records in the process, and leads his team to many victories, I don't see how he can be faulted.

Too many people see only the good plays and fancy throws that a player like Tyler Bray made occasionally, and think that makes him a fantastic qb. Instead, maybe the other guys that I mentioned always got their teammates in the right formations, knew how to read coverages and check off at the line, recognized blitzes, went through their progressions, set their feet properly, threw with touch, executed back shoulder throws, didn't try to force the ball into double coverage, scrambled when necessary to keep a play alive, had pocket awareness, mental and physical toughness, and were able to put their team on their backs, and bring their team back when they were behind.

There is more to it than being able to throw it 60 mph.

Show me where I said a QB had to throw it 60mph to be good?

Like it or not, the ultimate measure of a QB is whether he made it to the pros and how he did when he got there. Your guys didn't measure up. Not necessarily because they didn't throw it hard enough. No one would call Trent Dilfer an overly talented QB, but he was able to parlay the skills he had into a solid pro career and a Super Bowl ring. Your guys didn't.

I noticed you didn't address the competition level at Hawaii.......

 

[VFL1953]

Seems clear to me that the spread offense is the next step in the evolution of american football. Or should say current step, it's rapidly "spreading" across the country. Programs that were traditionally average or worse are winning big with it, even with so-called less talented rosters than the big pro-style teams.

We held on to the pro-style too long, IMO. We missed the initial budding wave of growth when we fired Clawson, while other SEC programs like UF and AU made hay. Now the only SEC teams holding on to the Pro-Style is Georgia and Alabama, the two teams with the biggest recruiting advantages. USC and LSU may be technically pro-style, but they use a lot of spread formation concepts with mobile QB's. But again, those two have enjoyed higher than normal recruiting advantages under their current coaches. Going back to pro-style under kiffin and dooley put us further behind, IMO. Did the same thing to UF when they hired muschamp.

Spread formations and the rules changes to restrict defenses, have given the less talented player new advantages. And we weren't blessed with the same instate talent that Georgia, LSU and Bama has, so we need the spread to help level the playing field. And todays players love playing in a spread, which further helps with recruiting.

Thread winner right here.

 

[WoodsmanVol]

After watching the Clemson vs. OSU game, I saw more clearly than I ever have our lack of blinding speed. I saw several players in various positions that had the acceleration of a Ferrari, the cornering of a Porsche, the smooth cruising of a Lamborghini, and on occasion the flight characteristics of an artillery shell.

 

[1972 Grad]

Show me where I said a QB had to throw it 60mph to be good?

Like it or not, the ultimate measure of a QB is whether he made it to the pros and how he did when he got there. Your guys didn't measure up. Not necessarily because they didn't throw it hard enough. No one would call Trent Dilfer an overly talented QB, but he was able to parlay the skills he had into a solid pro career and a Super Bowl ring. Your guys didn't.

I noticed you didn't address the competition level at Hawaii.......

1) I never said that these guys rose to the top of their profession.

2) I disagree with your premise that one has to succeed in the pros to have been considered to be a more than average quarterback.

3) Here are some names that I consider to be good quarterbacks that never made it big in the NFL. In your world these guys were not good quarterbacks:
Tommy Frazier-Nebraska
Gary Beban-UCLA
Heath Shuler-Tenn
Vinny Testaverde-Miami
Danny Wuerfel-Florida
Tim Tebow-Florida
Ryan Leaf-Wash St
Art Schlichter-Ohio St
Andre Ware-Houston
Terry Baker-Oregon St



My premise is that if a qb executes what he is asked, wins a lot of games, doesn't turn the ball over a lot, helps his team win, then he is a good quarterback. It doesn't necessarily follow that he has the skill set, the desire, the luck, or whatever to start for a long time and be successful in the NFL.

I don't know what else Danny Wuerfel could have done against U.T. over the years. I think that he was a fantastic quarterback, but he didn't have the arm strength for the pros. I think that Tim Tebow was a very good quarterback for Florida, just not for the Jets or Broncos.

 

[Burger]

This topic will be talked about for years to come. Here's the problems I see with going to a spread offense. One, you live and die by your QB. Worley trying to run the read option is just embarrassing guys. You have to be able to recruit and land QBs for the spread. Two, once you are committed to the spread and recruit for it for 2-3 years you can't really go back to a pro style system without tanking first. Don't believe me, go watch Florida play. Three, the spread is the hot thing right now, but eventually great D-Coord will learn to shut it down then what do you do? The best offense is one in which you have a mixture of both spread and power IMO. I love the idea of having a QB who can roll out of the pocket and make plays for us, but at the end of the day the best way to achieve and 3rd and 1 is to line up man to man and power run the ball. If you can power run the ball it sets up play action, and when you set up play action it's near impossible to stop a great offense.

You mean our mix of spread and power. We don't really run the spread. We run a multiple offense. I saw our qbs under center last year.

 

[WoodsmanVol]

Grad 1972 , in defense of (gagging) Tim Tebow (coughing uncontrollably), he may have been a better QB than most think. No, really, I’m serious. He had a cockamamie throwing motion, he was in reality a QB-TE-RB hybrid playing the position of QB. When allowed to just be who he is, he simply won games more often than not. But when experts, and I do mean real experts sought to modify his throwing motion and such, he degraded.

Some people are oddballs and unorthodox creatures who do things right by doing them wrong.
Example 1: I quit softball in college because a coach told me I’d never be any good as a pitcher. The problem? I had this really strange wind up and pitch motion. I asked if it was against the rules and he said no, but you’re not doing it right. Yet I consistently threw out batters. Basically I created a horizontally rotating motion with a twisting motion of my wrist. This caused batters to repeatedly foul the ball but it would drop straight down into the ground. Not even move forward when hit. Often landing behind the plate on the ground between the catcher’s legs. Batters got frustrated and almost always eventually just swung and missed. When I tried to pitch the “right” way, I became a wild pitcher who couldn’t pitcher across the plate with any degree of consistency.

Example 2: As a bowler, I can’t curve the ball if you held a gun to my head. Straight line bowling is all I can do. When “friends’ and teammates leave me alone and not try to”coach” me I hit lots of strikes. Often in clutch moments. Not only that, I stand closer to my launching point than I should, so I’m told. I throw down to the far right or left arrows depending on the lane side I’m bowling. The ball does drift and often hits the side of the center pin which causes a cascade of the others and fairly often a strike. But when I follow the “coaching” I get, it’s either gutter balls and/or leaving bunches of pins standing. I try to tell everyone, my way works for me. But they all say, “You’re doing it wrong.” I say if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. But you know people. . . .

Tim Tebow was like this. He did things right by doing it wrong, but it worked for him when he was left alone to just be who he is. They used to try to correct running QBs too. “Stay in the pocket, stay in the pocket.” But now, even the great Vol god Peyton is considered a throwback because he’s a classic pocket passer who likely can’t run so much as waddle his way down field when forced to move out. A running QB is considered a true asset these day.

Sonny Jergensen had this long side arm throwing motion and never got it corrected despite all the coaching. But he was a heck of QB when they just left him alone to do what he does. Some things are just better left alone.

 

[1972 Grad]

Grad 1972 , in defense of (gagging) Tim Tebow (coughing uncontrollably), he may have been a better QB than most think. No, really, I’m serious. He had a cockamamie throwing motion, he was in reality a QB-TE-RB hybrid playing the position of QB. When allowed to just be who he is, he simply won games more often than not. But when experts, and I do mean real experts sought to modify his throwing motion and such, he degraded.

Some people are oddballs and unorthodox creatures who do things right by doing them wrong.
Example 1: I quit softball in college because a coach told me I’d never be any good as a pitcher. The problem? I had this really strange wind up and pitch motion. I asked if it was against the rules and he said no, but you’re not doing it right. Yet I consistently threw out batters. Basically I created a horizontally rotating motion with a twisting motion of my wrist. This caused batters to repeatedly foul the ball but it would drop straight down into the ground. Not even move forward when hit. Often landing behind the plate on the ground between the catcher’s legs. Batters got frustrated and almost always eventually just swung and missed. When I tried to pitch the “right” way, I became a wild pitcher who couldn’t pitcher across the plate with any degree of consistency.

Example 2: As a bowler, I can’t curve the ball if you held a gun to my head. Straight line bowling is all I can do. When “friends’ and teammates leave me alone and not try to”coach” me I hit lots of strikes. Often in clutch moments. Not only that, I stand closer to my launching point than I should, so I’m told. I throw down to the far right or left arrows depending on the lane side I’m bowling. The ball does drift and often hits the side of the center pin which causes a cascade of the others and fairly often a strike. But when I follow the “coaching” I get, it’s either gutter balls and/or leaving bunches of pins standing. I try to tell everyone, my way works for me. But they all say, “You’re doing it wrong.” I say if it ain’t broke don’t fix it. But you know people. . . .

Tim Tebow was like this. He did things right by doing it wrong, but it worked for him when he was left alone to just be who he is. They used to try to correct running QBs too. “Stay in the pocket, stay in the pocket.” But now, even the great Vol god Peyton is considered a throwback because he’s a classic pocket passer who likely can’t run so much as waddle his way down field when forced to move out. A running QB is considered a true asset these day.

Sonny Jergensen had this long side arm throwing motion and never got it corrected despite all the coaching. But he was a heck of QB when they just left him alone to do what he does. Some things are just better left alone.

I was a big Redskin and Eagles fan and loved watching Jurgensen play when I was much younger. He released the ball from below his shoulder height. Do you think that we would have heard of Lee Trevino or Jim Furyk, if someone had tried to change them?

 

[VFL1953]

1)

3) Here are some names that I consider to be good quarterbacks that never made it big in the NFL. In your world these guys were not good quarterbacks:
Tommy Frazier-Nebraska
Gary Beban-UCLA
Heath Shuler-Tenn
Vinny Testaverde-Miami
Danny Wuerfel-Florida
Tim Tebow-Florida
Ryan Leaf-Wash St
Art Schlichter-Ohio St
Andre Ware-Houston
Terry Baker-Oregon St

To be precise, I said they were average quarterbacks. And, compared to Brady, Manning, Elway, Montana, .....yeah. I stand by my statement.

 

[1972 Grad]

To be precise, I said they were average quarterbacks. And, compared to Brady, Manning, Elway, Montana, .....yeah. I stand by my statement.

Just so I understand correctly.......If a quarterback does not have a long distinguished career in the NFL, then he is an average quarterback. Correct? If that is what it takes, then they were average, yes. We agree. What I didn't realize was that the bar is set so high that there are just a handful of above average quarterbacks.

 

[majic73]

In all honesty I don't care what we run, but I just don't want to see anymore read option BS with Worley. I understand we are implementing a system here, but at least put someone in their who can run a read option properly. I would love to see us get behind center in some single back formations though. I really think this team needs some more power running. I'm not saying we must line up in the I-Form to get it, but I wouldn't mind seeing some two TE single back sets. I just think we need to have more versatility outside running the ball out of the shotgun. I'm in full support of your argument that spreading the ball out and running it works and is effective, all I'd add is that I think it'd be in our best interest to not only be able to spread the field but also be able to play formations in which our QB is behind center.

Butch's system is different than many of the other 'spread' offenses. The passing game is a west coast style with leveled progressions. The running game is a power running game from the gun. Instead of using a fullback , they use an H back . There are more receivers outside of the formation ...but they carry a defender out of the box . It is a zone blocking scheme , with traps , and pulls . It is very much a power running game just with less people in the box. Some may even call it a power running spread .

This offense is not predicated on the zone read play ...such as Oregon's offensive philosophy where each play is played off of the root play of the zone read . The zone read is only an aspect of this offense. A running QB is not necessary for this offense . When Worley handed off to the back ( and never kept the ball himself ) they were running a basic half back dive play . This is a staple play in virtually any power running game . It is not required for the QB to ever keep the ball or even carry out the fake to run this play.

I will say that a run oriented QB will be nice ...but it is not a zone read offense that you will see ..you will see a west coast passing game grounded in the 4 verticals philosophy and a tailback oriented power running game . The offense can be operated by any kind of QB as long as they can execute the passing concepts.

 

[butchna]

1) I never said that these guys rose to the top of their profession.

2) I disagree with your premise that one has to succeed in the pros to have been considered to be a more than average quarterback.

3) Here are some names that I consider to be good quarterbacks that never made it big in the NFL. In your world these guys were not good quarterbacks:
Tommy Frazier-Nebraska
Gary Beban-UCLA
Heath Shuler-Tenn
Vinny Testaverde-Miami
Danny Wuerfel-Florida
Tim Tebow-Florida
Ryan Leaf-Wash St
Art Schlichter-Ohio St
Andre Ware-Houston
Terry Baker-Oregon St



My premise is that if a qb executes what he is asked, wins a lot of games, doesn't turn the ball over a lot, helps his team win, then he is a good quarterback. It doesn't necessarily follow that he has the skill set, the desire, the luck, or whatever to start for a long time and be successful in the NFL.

I don't know what else Danny Wuerfel could have done against U.T. over the years. I think that he was a fantastic quarterback, but he didn't have the arm strength for the pros. I think that Tim Tebow was a very good quarterback for Florida, just not for the Jets or Broncos.

Vinny Testaverde doesn't belong on that list...not a Hall of Famer or next tier but not a journeyman or scrub...got better after first third of his career
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[armchair]

A good spread offense, with a good running QB, will always be very hard to stop in college. The idea is to spread the field and put excellent athletes in one-on-on situations with defenders in space, you make one guy miss and you've got 10/15 or more yards. Bama has won without the spread mainly because they've had the best defense in the country for about 4 or the last six years, not to mention a big-time running game (and of course all the PEDs their boosters can buy). QBs who can run are a huge advantage--period. We haven't had one for ages and have suffered for it. I do miss the bruising FB in the I formation who can knock LBs on their butts. When UT was at its most formidable in the 1990s, we had some bruising FBs who were excellent blockers. We didn't get much out of the read-option last year because Worley can't run and wouldn't run and we had a weak passing game.

 

[ptclaus98]

Ok. So in the spread at times, the OL isnt trying to figure out who to block versus just driving over the man in front of them?

An old OT that walked thru the T this year with all the older players must've been mistaken when he told me schemes and techniques can affect aggressive blocking, especially when unfamiliar with a system. Thanks for giving me the correct info.

If an O-Lineman can't figure out how to hit while thinking, then he's probably playing on the wrong side of the football.

 

[ptclaus98]

Zone schemes are far easier than any man scheme. You simply block an area. If you can't figure out who to block, you probably have an iq lower than your shoe size.

Now if he was talking about the passing game, that may be more logical. A lot of teams will have 5 or 6 different protection schemes. But that's not a spread issue. Confused linemen can happen in any scheme.

This. So much of this. The zone blocking scheme is literally so easy I could teach it to a pee-wee player.

 

[ptclaus98]

This topic will be talked about for years to come. Here's the problems I see with going to a spread offense. One, you live and die by your QB. Worley trying to run the read option is just embarrassing guys. You have to be able to recruit and land QBs for the spread. Two, once you are committed to the spread and recruit for it for 2-3 years you can't really go back to a pro style system without tanking first. Don't believe me, go watch Florida play. Three, the spread is the hot thing right now, but eventually great D-Coord will learn to shut it down then what do you do? The best offense is one in which you have a mixture of both spread and power IMO. I love the idea of having a QB who can roll out of the pocket and make plays for us, but at the end of the day the best way to achieve and 3rd and 1 is to line up man to man and power run the ball. If you can power run the ball it sets up play action, and when you set up play action it's near impossible to stop a great offense.

We tried to do this many times this past year. Rarely, if ever did we run out of shotgun in short yardage situations. Again, the execution was not there at critical times.