U.S. Navy Not Fit For War

[Pepe_Silvia]

Depends on long-term plan. Russia obtained a lot of necessary support from US to survive. Similarly, the bombing raids, distractions in North Africa, invasions of Italy, etc. pulled resources away from Eastern Front that could have made a difference.

Had US not got involved, Germany's chances of winning increase and you cannot argue that. Germany still had a chance in 1942. After Stalingrad, though, they were done for.

BTW, the North African Campaign saw the largest surrender of the Axis in the War (even more than Stalingrad).

Regarding UK, if Germany had beaten Russia, than they could have had the oil and resources to begin a major shipbuilding campaign to match the Royal Navy. Germany could have realized Plan Z and built 6-7 Super Battleships, 5 Aircraft Carriers, etc.

I think stalemate was the best Hitler could hope for against Russia post-1941 even without the US entering the war.

 

[VolStrom]

Hitlers biggest mistake was declaring war on the US after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.

 

[hog88]

And yet Britain still had remnants of their premier navy left that would have easily choked off any supplies Germany would have needed. And as we well know now (and even back then they were aware), all the bombing in the world still wouldn't replace a ground attack. Now does anyone in here think Germany would have been able to achieve a successful amphibious attack on Britain? D-Day in reverse? Hell, the US bombed the hell out of Japan and still were weary about having to face boots on the ground in Japan.

It's very possible Germany could have taken Britain in Oct/Nov 1940. Their U-boats about had a stranglehold on the northern atlantic and lend-lease had not even begun, hell we weren't even geared up to manufacture the war material or ship it to Britain in the fall of 1940.

 

[Grand Vol]

Lets suppose they did know it, how would it have gotten from there to the mainland? Britain still had a formidable navy. Their only hope was an over land route to gain their oil needs.

Take Malta and the Med becomes a Nazi lake. Yes, Gibraltar was a problem, but it very easily couldBBC have been blockaded and/or invaded.

Biggest problem wasn't oil though. Oil for going after the Soviets, yes. But the biggest problem was the Reich switching targets from the military-industrial targets in the UK to population centers. Also, the Wehrmacht pulling up before the Battle of Dunkirk really hurt them. They could have decimated the combat strength of the British Army had they just gone for it.

 

[hog88]

So much oil yet they were still using horse-drawn carts for military transport in the 1940s. Doesn't make sense.

The Caucasus oil fields were a major influence on hitlers decision to invade russia.

Yes, Hitler wanted the oil fields but Germany had enough fuel to carry the war. They also had the Romanian fields and refineries.

When Allied bombing of the German synfuels plants began taking its toll in late 1944 and early 1945, the entire Nazi war machine began grinding to a halt. More than 92 percent of Germany's aviation gasoline and half its total petroleum during World War II had come from synthetic fuel plants. At its peak in early 1944, the German synfuels effort produced more than 124,000 barrels per day from 25 plants. In February 1945, one month after Allied forces turned back the Hitler's troops at the Battle of the Bulge, German production of synthetic aviation gasoline amounted to just a thousand tons – one half of one percent of the level of the first four months of 1944. None was to be produced afterwards. Lack of petrol meant the end of the war and the end of the Third Reich.

Early Days of Coal Research

 

[hog88]

Hitlers biggest mistake was declaring war on the US after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.

No, it was invading Russia instead of Britain and his treatment of the Jews.

 

[VolStrom]

No, it was invading Russia instead of Britain and his treatment of the Jews.

He was already deep into a fight with both Russia and the British when he declared war on the the US. Maybe he was already in a losing fight, but putting the US head on in the British side was suicide.

 

[volbound1700]

I love how posters in this thread think they know more about Germany's threat then comments from Churchill, Roosevelt, Stalin and their staffs at the time.

Germany was a MAJOR threat as cited by all of the contemporary world leaders at the time. Stalingrad was the true turning point of the war with Germany. Until Stalingrad, the German war machine could continue to push. (El Alamein is also considered a major turning point as well for North Africa Campaign).

Axis were constantly on the advance until both battles.

 

[volbound1700]

Good Youtube video about a "What if" the USA had stayed out of World War 2.

 

[midnight orange]

I love how posters in this thread think they know more about Germany's threat then comments from Churchill, Roosevelt, Stalin and their staffs at the time.

Germany was a MAJOR threat as cited by all of the contemporary world leaders at the time. Stalingrad was the true turning point of the war with Germany. Until Stalingrad, the German war machine could continue to push. (El Alamein is also considered a major turning point as well for North Africa Campaign).

Axis were constantly on the advance until both battles.

I love how posters on this board assume that Churchill, FDR and Stalin were bastions of truth.

 

[hog88]

I love how posters on this board assume that Churchill, FDR and Stalin were bastions of truth.

I hold Churchill in slightly higher regard than FDR and Stalin. FDR was only interested in empire building and of course Stalin was no better than Hitler.

 

[volbound1700]

I love how posters on this board assume that Churchill, FDR and Stalin were bastions of truth.

This is so dumb it does not even deserve a response. So you are saying they lied to their staff in personal meetings and their writings about the threat of Nazi Germany?

Ever contemporary historian is wrong as well I assume oh enlightened one. Honestly, I am done. You can't fix stupid. Go tell anyone that lived through the era that Nazi Germany wasn't a threat.

 

[OrangeTsar]

Never got how FDR was so revered..Everyone saw war coming and he piddled. Totally unprepared and a failure of leadership.

Everyone was unprepared for WWII except for Germany and Japan. Everyone else just stuck their heads in the sand and hoped the problem would go away with wishful thinking. The horror of the Great War made the West far too skittish to take the steps that could have prevented an even more destructive war

 

[OrangeTsar]

I hold Churchill in slightly higher regard than FDR and Stalin. FDR was only interested in empire building and of course Stalin was no better than Hitler.

Churchill was one of the great statesmen of history. He basically stood alone against Hitler for the first year and a half of the war. That took an incredible amount of moral courage, especially considering that much of the British ruling class was pushing for a capitulation to the Nazis

 

[Pepe_Silvia]

This is so dumb it does not even deserve a response. So you are saying they lied to their staff in personal meetings and their writings about the threat of Nazi Germany?

Ever contemporary historian is wrong as well I assume oh enlightened one. Honestly, I am done. You can't fix stupid. Go tell anyone that lived through the era that Nazi Germany wasn't a threat.

You mad?

 

[Orangeburst]

Everyone was unprepared for WWII except for Germany and Japan. Everyone else just stuck their heads in the sand and hoped the problem would go away with wishful thinking. The horror of the Great War made the West far to skittish to take the steps that could have prevented an even more destructive war

WWII started a decade before we declared when Japan invaded Manchuria. Granted we were Depression mode, but totally unprepared IMO. I get it, budgets were tight, but in 1942 sending troops out for training with fake weapons and such..total failure.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

I hold Churchill in slightly higher regard than FDR and Stalin. FDR was only interested in empire building and of course Stalin was no better than Hitler.

That's funny, I actually consider Churchill one of the biggest snakes of the 20th Century.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

This is so dumb it does not even deserve a response. So you are saying they lied to their staff in personal meetings and their writings about the threat of Nazi Germany?

Ever contemporary historian is wrong as well I assume oh enlightened one. Honestly, I am done. You can't fix stupid. Go tell anyone that lived through the era that Nazi Germany wasn't a threat.

Obviously they were a formidable opponent, but for anyone to say they would have dominated the world, including making a measurable threat to the United States is simply hyperbole. And it's open for debate that they would have been very successful moving into Russia, even without the Lend-Lease program. That was door to door street fighting in Stalingrad. A pyrrhic victory would have been their best outcome.

 

[agVOL90]

Our military should not be dwelling on such nonsense. Their purpose and singular mission should be preparing to kill the enemy and how to most effectively break their things without regard for nation building, climate change or social justice dribble.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Our military should not be dwelling on such nonsense. Their purpose and singular mission should be preparing to kill the enemy and how to most effectively break their things without regard for nation building, climate change or social justice dribble.

Oh I don’t know I think our strategic forces should have a pretty good handle on very localized pin pointed rapid and intense heating events immediately followed by extremely high winds.

 

[Rickyvol77]

That's funny, I actually consider Churchill one of the biggest snakes of the 20th Century.

As par for your feelings of anyone in an authority position

 

[hog88]

That's funny, I actually consider Churchill one of the biggest snakes of the 20th Century.

He was without a doubt but FDR and Stalin were even bigger ones.

 

[OrangeTsar]

WWII started a decade before we declared when Japan invaded Manchuria. Granted we were Depression mode, but totally unprepared IMO. I get it, budgets were tight, but in 1942 sending troops out for training with fake weapons and such..total failure.

Thankfully the morale and fiber of the simple US fighting man pulled us through. They aren’t called the greatest generation for nothing

 

[Pacer92]

No, it was invading Russia instead of Britain and his treatment of the Jews.

Yep...invading Russia was a huge blunder. He underestimated the true vastness of Russia. Had he succeeded to take Moscow by that first winter...would’ve been different. But, even then, stretched so thin and so far, it still would’ve been difficult without a capable ally to defend the many flanks of the occupied territories.

A successful invasion or siege of Britain would’ve produced a German victory for sure. He could’ve then turned his focus toward Russia down the road..

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

A successful invasion or siege of Britain would’ve produced a German victory for sure. He could’ve then turned his focus toward Russia down the road..

I can't even imagine how bloody a land invasion of England would have been. Again, reflect on how much staging and planning it took for Normandy.