United States, Cuba to normalize relations

#404
#404
Velo Vol said:
Do you think the Cuban people buy the line that US trade policy is to blame for their problems?
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The majority? No idea. I would guess some do and many did. We are partly to blame, so it makes sense to buy it, especially when so many people have nationalist tendencies and seek to villainize other countries and find bogeymen.
 
#405
#405
n_huffhines said:
The majority? No idea. I would guess some do and many did. We are partly to blame, so it makes sense to buy it, especially when so many people have nationalist tendencies and seek to villainize other countries and find bogeymen.
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Trade as a means of "exporting democracy" is an interesting discussion.

For a number of years, it seemed like it was working in China, then they backtracked.
 
#406
#406
Velo Vol said:
Trade as a means of "exporting democracy" is an interesting discussion.

For a number of years, it seemed like it was working in China, then they backtracked.
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I don't really have much faith in the idea of exporting democracy, I just look at it like free trade lifts all boats, whether you have a terrible government or not.
 
#408
#408
StarRaider said:
sure lets drop the embargo against the communist regime that hates the USA and wanted to let the Bolsheviks install nuclear missiles aimed at USA cities.... what could go wrong? At least we could git us sum gud smokes right?
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Our trade blockade against Cuba has probably been our worst long term foreign policy decision. Good chance that if we would have traded and interacted with the Cubans they would have overthrown the Castros years ago.
 
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#409
#409
hog88 said:
Our trade blockade against Cuba has probably been our worst long term foreign policy decision. Good chance that if we would have traded and interacted with the Cubans they would have overthrown the Castros years ago.
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I don't know about "worst" but it's not really worked.
 
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#410
#410
hog88 said:
Our trade blockade against Cuba has probably been our worst long term foreign policy decision. Good chance that if we would have traded and interacted with the Cubans they would have overthrown the Castros years ago.
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The problems with Cuba rest squarely on the shoulders of the Castro family not trade policy with US. Our trade policy was a product of the Cold War not the reverse and the blocking of nuclear missile deliveries to Cubs was one of the few Kennedy administration successes. I don’t think you realize just how close the Soviets pushed the World into nuclear war. As far as the Cuban people rising up against the Castro regime, maybe you should ask the thousands that were killed by him as to why others didn’t rise up
 
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#411
#411
landscapingvol said:
The problems with Cuba rest squarely on the shoulders of the Castro family not trade policy with US. Our trade policy was a product of the Cold War not the reverse and the blocking of nuclear missile deliveries to Cubs was one of the few Kennedy administration successes. I don’t think you realize just how close the Soviets pushed the World into nuclear war. As far as the Cuban people rising up against the Castro regime, maybe you should ask the thousands that were killed by him as to why others didn’t rise up
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The issue is what, if anything, the US should do to apply pressure for change.
 
#412
#412
n_huffhines said:
Why do you hate freedom?

Because the embargo does little to punish the regime (it's more likely that it's further entrenched the communists), and it hurts all Cubans and all Americans, at least to some small degree.
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Who do you think would benefit the most from removing the trade blockade? I will give you a hint it isn’t the average poor Cuban. By your logic, sanctions against the Soviets and China should never have occurred either because the people would have eventually just risen up. You greatly underestimate the level of fear the people genuinely feel against brutally oppressive regimes. Opening trade markets with an oppressive government doesn’t magically mean that the said government is just going to go quietly into the night and not greatly benefit from foreign trade markets. “Free trade” has to be fostered by the government not created by hopes and wishes
 
#414
#414
landscapingvol said:
Considering Cuba was just dozens of miles away and it was the height of the Cold War, I don’t think doing nothing was an option. That would have been extremely foolish
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I mean today. What do you see as the undoing of an authoritarian government in a poor nation?
 
#415
#415
landscapingvol said:
The problems with Cuba rest squarely on the shoulders of the Castro family not trade policy with US. Our trade policy was a product of the Cold War not the reverse and the blocking of nuclear missile deliveries to Cubs was one of the few Kennedy administration successes. I don’t think you realize just how close the Soviets pushed the World into nuclear war. As far as the Cuban people rising up against the Castro regime, maybe you should ask the thousands that were killed by him as to why others didn’t rise up
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I don't think you know how close JFK pushed us into WWIII. Neither us nor the Soviets were innocent in escalating the Cuban missile crisis but you keep on believing the whitewashed history you were taught. Kennedy didn't win the Cuban missile crisis since we ended up removing our weapons from Turkey.

Our embargo of Cuba has been a complete failure since it's purpose was to make life hard on the Cuban people, so hard that they revolted against the regime. Maybe if we had traded with Cuba and kept the lines of communication open the people would have had the resources to revolt.
 
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#419
#419
n_huffhines said:
I don't really have much faith in the idea of exporting democracy, I just look at it like free trade lifts all boats, whether you have a terrible government or not.
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while you can't export democracy you can export the fruits of democracy - countless examples of exporting these via communications (eg. radio free europe, internet etc).

helping people see what's possible under different government structures is IMHO the most effective tool for empowering people. while I support free trade it may just make authoritarianism mildly less horrible for the recipients
 
#420
#420
hog88 said:
I don't think you know how close JFK pushed us into WWIII. Neither us nor the Soviets were innocent in escalating the Cuban missile crisis but you keep on believing the whitewashed history you were taught. Kennedy didn't win the Cuban missile crisis since we ended up removing our weapons from Turkey.

Our embargo of Cuba has been a complete failure since it's purpose was to make life hard on the Cuban people, so hard that they revolted against the regime. Maybe if we had traded with Cuba and kept the lines of communication open the people would have had the resources to revolt.
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What should I believe? The goofy version of history you subscribe to. The truth is generally what it appears to be but human nature loves a conspiracy or alternative theory
 
#421
#421
volinbham said:
while you can't export democracy you can export the fruits of democracy - countless examples of exporting these via communications (eg. radio free europe, internet etc).

helping people see what's possible under different government structures is IMHO the most effective tool for empowering people. while I support free trade it may just make authoritarianism mildly less horrible for the recipients
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Well, I guess maybe I didn't understand what he meant by exporting democracy. If it encompasses this kind of interaction, then yeah.

When people say "export democracy" I think Iraq occupation, not Soviets watching reruns of Dallas.
 
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#422
#422
hog88 said:
I don't think you know how close JFK pushed us into WWIII. Neither us nor the Soviets were innocent in escalating the Cuban missile crisis but you keep on believing the whitewashed history you were taught. Kennedy didn't win the Cuban missile crisis since we ended up removing our weapons from Turkey.

Our embargo of Cuba has been a complete failure since it's purpose was to make life hard on the Cuban people, so hard that they revolted against the regime. Maybe if we had traded with Cuba and kept the lines of communication open the people would have had the resources to revolt.
Click to expand...

You equate moving missiles from Turkey with not having them 100 miles south of Florida? You still aren’t grasping the fact that the Castro regime murdered thousands of Cubans. Do you really think he would allow the importation of resources that could be used against him? I am sure if he just Snickers to eat and Coke to drink he would have turned into a benevolent dictator
 
#423
#423
n_huffhines said:
Well, I guess maybe I didn't understand what he meant by exporting democracy. If it encompasses this kind of interaction, then yeah.

When people say "export democracy" I think Iraq occupation, not Soviets watching reruns of Dallas.
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Why would you gloss over South Korea, Japan, Germany, fall of the Soviet Union, Israel, etc. and jump to Iraq/Afghanistan? We never really tried to install democracies in either place other than propping up feckless regimes similar to South Vietnam. I am no supporter of foreign wars unless completely necessary. We should have never been in Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan. That was the mistake not foolishly trying to prop up democracies
 
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#424
#424
landscapingvol said:
What should I believe? The goofy version of history you subscribe to. The truth is generally what it appears to be but human nature loves a conspiracy or alternative theory
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You should get out of your government issued history books and read alternative literature on the subject. There’s no conspiracy, we put nukes in Turkey and the Soviets responded by putting nukes in Cuba. End result was damn near WWIII until both sides backed down.
 
#425
#425
landscapingvol said:
You equate moving missiles from Turkey with not having them 100 miles south of Florida? You still aren’t grasping the fact that the Castro regime murdered thousands of Cubans. Do you really think he would allow the importation of resources that could be used against him? I am sure if he just Snickers to eat and Coke to drink he would have turned into a benevolent dictator
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China has murdered hundreds of thousands of Chinese and others yet we trade with them.
 
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