UT gets warning to protect Jews

#201
#201
Orange_Crush said:
Freedom of Expression/Speech pertains to gov't enforcement as opposed to private enforcement, no?

If you walk into a store or home cursing, you can be kicked out. If you walk into my home wearing an explicit shirt, I can tell you to leave. Heck, I can kick you out of my home for near any reason I want.
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The argument is about the publicly funded State university.
 
#205
#205
EasternVol said:
I didn't say or imply that.
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OK. You asked about Israel refusing a two-state solution. They've agreed to it several times and Hamas has repeatedly refused. But all of that is a red herring anyway. The Palestinian protests in question were chanting a refusal, which started your whataboutism rabbit trail, since the conversation had nothing to do with Israeli protests.

You just knee-jerk reply to any post about potentially bad Palestinian protests with whataboutism, as though your supply of oxygen depended on it.

Again, the point you took issue with was a hypothetical example to make distinction between protected speech and illegal harassment, using the context of the thread to do so.
 
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#206
#206
EasternVol said:
Apparently some or many do, so ponder that. That's also a Likud saying.
Hamas' charter says Jews are welcome to live in the Palestinian state they envision, just fyi, as Israeli law says non-Jews there will be treated equally.
We're not in the UK. They're more of a nanny state than we are. The issue isn't fear, it's reasonable fear of a present threat.
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Where in their charter does it say Jews can live in the Palestinian state?
 
#208
#208
Orange_Crush said:
OK. You asked about Israel refusing a two-state solution. They've agreed to it several times and Hamas has repeatedly refused. But all of that is a red herring anyway. The Palestinian protests in question were chanting a refusal, which started your whataboutism rabbit trail, since the conversation had nothing to do with Israeli protests.

You just knee-jerk reply to any post about potentially bad Palestinian protests with whataboutism, as though your supply of oxygen depended on it.

Again, the point you took issue was a hypothetical example to make distinction between protected speech and illegal harassment, using the context of the thread to do so.
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You said that the Palestinians wanting it all was genocidal. I asked if it would also be genocidal if the Israelis want it all, which at least Likud does. You should check hamas' 2017 charter to see if they accept or accepted a two state solution. They did, but not one acceptable to the Israelis.
You seem confused as to what whataboutism is.
 
#210
#210
EasternVol said:
You said that the Palestinians wanting it all was genocidal. I asked if it would also be genocidal if the Israelis want it all, which at least Likud does. You should check hamas' 2017 charter to see if they accept or accepted a two state solution. They did, but not one acceptable to the Israelis.
You seem confused as to what whataboutism is.
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And I agreed that if Israelites wanted a one-state solution, they would suffer the same accusation. As a matter of fact, there are current Israeli popular songs suffering that criticism right now.
 
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#212
#212
85SugarVol said:
It’s probably in the “new” charter.

Where they changed the words in the MS Word document to match the change in their hearts towards the Jews.
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I don’t believe it does (although could be wrong I haven’t read it in a while) it clarifies their fight is against “Zionism” and not Judaism. Also says they reject the persecution of Jews and links it to European history and not the Arab Muslim world. Rejecting the persecution of Jews and saying they’re welcome to live in Palestine is not the same
 
#213
#213
Smokey123 said:
I don’t believe it does (although could be wrong I haven’t read it in a while) it clarifies their fight is against “Zionism” and not Judaism. Also says they reject the persecution of Jews and links it to European history and not the Arab Muslim world. Rejecting the persecution of Jews and saying they’re welcome to live in Palestine is not the same
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I have no idea. Was just throwing shade at the new charter where Hamas “totally changed their minds” about pursuing a genocide against the Jews.
 
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#214
#214
85SugarVol said:
It’s probably in the “new” charter.

Where they changed the words in the MS Word document to match the change in their hearts towards the Jews.
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I think it's article 2:

2. Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras al-Naqurah in the north to Umm al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and the home of the Palestinian people. The expulsion and banishment of the Palestinian people from their land and the establishment of the Zionist entity therein do not annul the right of the Palestinian people to their entire land and do not entrench any rights therein for the usurping Zionist entity.
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It's probably more clearly allowed in articles 18-20:

18. The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination.

19. There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. Whatever has befallen the land of Palestine in terms of occupation, settlement building, judaisation or changes to its features or falsification of facts is illegitimate. Rights never lapse.

20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.

21. Hamas affirms that the Oslo Accords and their addenda contravene the governing rules of international law in that they generate commitments that violate the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people. Therefore, the Movement rejects these agreements and all that flows from them, such as the obligations that are detrimental to the interests of our people, especially security coordination (collaboration).

22. Hamas rejects all the agreements, initiatives and settlement projects that are aimed at undermining the Palestinian cause and the rights of our Palestinian people. In this regard, any stance, initiative or political programme must not in any way violate these rights and should not contravene them or contradict them.

23. Hamas stresses that transgression against the Palestinian people, usurping their land and banishing them from their homeland cannot be called peace. Any settlements reached on this basis will not lead to peace. Resistance and jihad for the liberation of Palestine will remain a legitimate right, a duty and an honour for all the sons and daughters of our people and our Ummah.
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So, the claim is that they were willing to settle for a two-state solution, when in actuality, they said they would settle for a temporary two state solution (as if they had a choice at the time) while still seeking to destroy Israel and reclaim the entirety of the land because a two-state solution is unacceptable. Basically, they were saying that they could not take it all at the time, but reserved the right to destroy Israel when they could because it's their right to do so. Literally, they said there would never be peace with any 2-state solution.

It's also probably easier to talk about it in such ways since they don't seem to see Israel as human:


Palestine is a land that was seized by a racist, anti-human and colonial Zionist project that was founded on a false promise (the Balfour Declaration), on recognition of a usurping entity and on imposing a fait accompli by force.
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It's completely disingenuous to claim that this is an acceptance of a two-state solution.
 
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#217
#217
Smokey123 said:
I don’t believe it does (although could be wrong I haven’t read it in a while) it clarifies their fight is against “Zionism” and not Judaism. Also says they reject the persecution of Jews and links it to European history and not the Arab Muslim world. Rejecting the persecution of Jews and saying they’re welcome to live in Palestine is not the same
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It reads basically as a distinction with little meaning, likely for global perception cover.

Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
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"I don't kick dogs because they're dogs. I kick dogs because they bark."

"We don't target Jews because of their religion. We target Jews because they are Zionists. Note that their definition of a "Zionist" is larger than just "Israel". It's anyone who support's Israel's right to be in Israel.

The Zionist project is a racist, aggressive, colonial and expansionist project based on seizing the properties of others; it is hostile to the Palestinian people and to their aspiration for freedom, liberation, return and self-determination. The Israeli entity is the plaything of the Zionist project and its base of aggression.
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Supposedly, this would include anyone (any Jew) outside of Israel that supports Israel's existence, thus the accusations of genocidal aims.
 
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#218
#218
EasternVol said:
One of the clauses spells it out. It's been a while since I read it.
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Read it again. It says they'll temporarily accept, but will keep fighting to destroy the Zionists and take the whole land. I quoted the pertinent sections.

Then, historically, I do believe they have rejected every 2-state solution offered, while Israel has accepted at least several.
 
#219
#219
Orange_Crush said:
Read it again. It says they'll temporarily accept, but will keep fighting to destroy the Zionists and take the whole land. I quoted the pertinent sections.

Then, historically, I do believe they have rejected every 2-state solution offered, while Israel has accepted at least several.
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i don't need to read it again. I found a post I'd made in another thread. See Article 31. There's a whole discussion of this in the Israel vs Palestinians thread.
 
#220
#220
EasternVol said:
i don't need to read it again. I found a post I'd made in another thread. See Article 31. There's a whole discussion of this in the Israel vs Palestinians thread.
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This one?
Hamas affirms that the role of the Palestinian Authority should be to serve the Palestinian people and safeguard their security, their rights and their national project.
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#221
#221
EasternVol said:
i don't need to read it again. I found a post I'd made in another thread. See Article 31.
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My apologies. I was quoting from their updated charter. Here's some more.

www.middleeasteye.net

Hamas in 2017: The document in full

Hamas explains general principles and objectives in 42-article document
www.middleeasteye.net www.middleeasteye.net

24. The liberation of Palestine is the duty of the Palestinian people in particular and the duty of the Arab and Islamic Ummah in general. It is also a humanitarian obligation as necessitated by the dictates of truth and justice. The agencies working for Palestine, whether national, Arab, Islamic or humanitarian, complement each other and are harmonious and not in conflict with each other.

25. Resisting the occupation with all means and methods is a legitimate right guaranteed by divine laws and by international norms and laws. At the heart of these lies armed resistance, which is regarded as the strategic choice for protecting the principles and the rights of the Palestinian people.

26. Hamas rejects any attempt to undermine the resistance and its arms. It also affirms the right of our people to develop the means and mechanisms of resistance. Managing resistance, in terms of escalation or de-escalation, or in terms of diversifying the means and methods, is an integral part of the process of managing the conflict and should not be at the expense of the principle of resistance.
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#223
#223
Smokey123 said:
This one?
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If he's talking about the original charter, and not the updated one I quoted, article 31 does not accept a two-state solution. It accepts a one state solution that allows others to live there under Shariah law.

Article Thirty-One:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts.

Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.

It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror. Every one of them is at variance with his fellow-religionists, not to speak about followers of other religionists. Past and present history are full of examples to prove this fact.

“They will not fight against you in a body, except in fenced towns, or from behind walls. Their strength in war among themselves is great: thou thinkest them to be united; but their hearts are divided. This, because they are people who do not understand.” (The Emigration – verse 14).

Islam confers upon everyone his legitimate rights. Islam prevents the incursion on other people's rights. The Zionist Nazi activities against our people will not last for long. “For the state of injustice lasts but one day, while the state of justice lasts till Doomsday.”

“As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly.” (The Tried – verse 8).
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#225
#225
From the same original charter:

Article Eleven:

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Muslim generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Muslim generations till Judgement Day?
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Article Fifteen:

The day that enemies usurp part of Muslim land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Muslim. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters.
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