UT under potential NCAA investigation for NIL

[Johnnyreb#VFL]

Me every time I come into this thread

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

You could possibly put a salary cap on what they earn from the school. You can't limit it past that without going against the USSC ruling. Money earned outside can't be regulated by the NCAA

The player’s money is NOT regulated, it is documented and calculated in the team’s approved NIL cap. It is not paid by the team, nor reported to the team. It is reported to the NCAA on a waiver to compete with amateur form. NCAA keeps count just like they do for counters each team has. 85 scholarships and X NIL dollars limits. A player is guaranteed he can cut his deal(s) OF ANY SIZE and play for any team with cap space.

Where does that run afoul of the ruling?

 

[K87vol]

The player’s money is NOT regulated, it is documented and calculated in the team’s approved NIL cap. It is not paid by the team, nor reported to the team. It is reported to the NCAA on a waiver to compete with amateur form. NCAA keeps count just like they do for counters each team has. 85 scholarships and X NIL dollars limits. A player is guaranteed he can cut his deal OF ANY SIZE and play for any team with cap space.

Where does that run afoul of the ruling?

If it's not reported to team how do they know how much cap space is available.
Irrelevant since it's outside of any control of university.
Just like a nfl guy commercial intake doesn't go against nfl teams cap.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

The player’s money is NOT regulated, it is documented and calculated in the team’s approved NIL cap. It is not paid by the team, nor reported to the team. It is reported to the NCAA on a waiver to compete with amateur form. NCAA keeps count just like they do for counters each team has. 85 scholarships and X NIL dollars limits. A player is guaranteed he can cut his deal(s) OF ANY SIZE and play for any team with cap space.

Where does that run afoul of the ruling?

You continue to push this knowing full well your idea "puts a reasonable time period when NIL deals can be signed" which is an Antitrust and possibly even a Constitutional violation.

Once and for all: you cannot limit the amount nor the timing of NIL deals. It's illegal.

Your idea to cap teams FAILS because players, once playing for a team under the cap, will sign NIL putting the team over the cap. At that point you can:

1. Ding the team next year and get sued because you're dinging the team for something they didn't do.

2. Force the team to dismiss the player and get sued because you have zero right to dismiss that player.

3.

I'll wait for you to fill in #3.

 

[cherokeeeVOL]

I hope they keep finding ways to push this forward to counter the NCAA's usual snail pace tactic. This has to be exhausting for the staff too in recruiting. I hope we don't lose any coaches over it, not that they are being targeted by the investigation but just that they would get tired of dealing with this stuff and move on.

 

[K87vol]

Tennessee AG responds in lawsuit: 'NCAA defends a world that doesn’t exist'

The state of Tennessee lambasted the NCAA for defending "a world that doesn’t exist" in the latest exchange amid an antitrust lawsuit involving NIL.

www.tennessean.com

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

You continue to push this knowing full well your idea "puts a reasonable time period when NIL deals can be signed" which is an Antitrust and possibly even a Constitutional violation.

Once and for all: you cannot limit the amount nor the timing of NIL deals. It's illegal.

Your idea to cap teams FAILS because players, once playing for a team under the cap, will sign NIL putting the team over the cap. At that point you can:

1. Ding the team next year and get sued because you're dinging the team for something they didn't do.

2. Force the team to dismiss the player and get sued because you have zero right to dismiss that player.

3.

I'll wait for you to fill in #3.

Just like you can have time requirements to register to vote, there are cutoff dates even getting into class, NIL OR NOT. Can you show me where a 24/7 365 requirement is detailed in the anti-trust legislation. Agreements define commitments and requirements on both sides and that could include the definition of the annual allocation limits by the school and a modification process. An increase may not be an issue if there is still cap room.

Yes, if they don’t like the school’s position, just like depth chart or other issues they can exercise their portal rights and join the thousands that are in there for ALL reasons. Just sync up NIL windows with signing days and portal windows. Might have to add special NIL driven waivers as an accommodation to the law, no big deal. They are free to negotiate following periods deals at all times.

Until the structure of the process creates a situation where there is no landing spot for a player, they are not constrained. The player has no right to demand a school allocate their cap space anymore than they do a scholarship in our current year to year world. Just another reason to “PROCESS “ squad members. Not worth a scholly or NOW the NIL Cap hit the player brings to the table. That flexibility is the only convenient aspect of current freedom extended to the players for the schools. Immediate playing time is out there if either side has to make a business decision.

Could this lead to multiple year scholarships and agreements? Maybe. An option. More trips to lower courts and the SCOTUS probably in our future. Starting here in Knoxville or Greenville maybe I heard.

To be clear MY PLAN, is not what the NCAA wants but an option they CAN be forced into without some control mechanisms I don’t see coming. NIL. Is a factor SIMILAR to NFL cap that is necessary to maintain SOME competitive balance for their members. Regardless of the sourcing of the money it is verifiable. Bet those NIL agreements are not lump sum, and have a payment schedule by period. It would be possible for a player to define his allocation requirements in excess of his current commitment. Just can’t exceed it.

 

[utvolpj]

NIL. Is a factor SIMILAR to NFL cap that is necessary to maintain SOME competitive balance for their members. Regardless of the sourcing of the money it is verifiable. Bet those NIL agreements are not lump sum, and have a payment schedule by period. It would be possible for a player to define his allocation requirements in excess of his current commitment. Just can’t exceed it.

Unless you're paying the players as employees there can be no cap as NIL doesn't go thru the school. There is no earnings cap outside of team pay for the NFL either. Limiting the earning potential for anyone is illegal and immoral

 

[K87vol]

The player’s money is NOT regulated, it is documented and calculated in the team’s approved NIL cap. It is not paid by the team, nor reported to the team. It is reported to the NCAA on a waiver to compete with amateur form. NCAA keeps count just like they do for counters each team has. 85 scholarships and X NIL dollars limits. A player is guaranteed he can cut his deal(s) OF ANY SIZE and play for any team with cap space.

Where does that run afoul of the ruling?

NIL cap space ..lol

So Wendys calls my NIL group to do a commercial mid season... i can't do it because of cap space...
Ya, that's not gonna happen.

 

[brentcontractor]

Just like you can have time requirements to register to vote, there are cutoff dates even getting into class, NIL OR NOT. Can you show me where a 24/7 365 requirement is detailed in the anti-trust legislation. Agreements define commitments and requirements on both sides and that could include the definition of the annual allocation limits by the school and a modification process. An increase may not be an issue if there is still cap room.

Yes, if they don’t like the school’s position, just like depth chart or other issues they can exercise their portal rights and join the thousands that are in there for ALL reasons. Just sync up NIL windows with signing days and portal windows. Might have to add special NIL driven waivers as an accommodation to the law, no big deal. They are free to negotiate following periods deals at all times.

Until the structure of the process creates a situation where there is no landing spot for a player, they are not constrained. The player has no right to demand a school allocate their cap space anymore than they do a scholarship in our current year to year world. Just another reason to “PROCESS “ squad members. Not worth a scholly or NOW the NIL Cap hit the player brings to the table. That flexibility is the only convenient aspect of current freedom extended to the players for the schools. Immediate playing time is out there if either side has to make a business decision.

Could this lead to multiple year scholarships and agreements? Maybe. An option. More trips to lower courts and the SCOTUS probably in our future. Starting here in Knoxville or Greenville maybe I heard.

To be clear MY PLAN, is not what the NCAA wants but an option they CAN be forced into without some control mechanisms I don’t see coming. NIL. Is a factor SIMILAR to NFL cap that is necessary to maintain SOME competitive balance for their members. Regardless of the sourcing of the money it is verifiable. Bet those NIL agreements are not lump sum, and have a payment schedule by period. It would be possible for a player to define his allocation requirements in excess of his current commitment. Just can’t exceed it.

The hole is that you are capping NIL right for a player once season starts. NFL cap is pay. NIL is endorcement right. NFL does not cap NFL NIL right. What will legitimately happen is that an unknown player will suddenly ball out and a legit cookie company will offer them to endorce their product for a fee that if they except will put team over NIL cap. To stay within your cap, the player will be denied their right to accept.

 

[kcvols1]

This whole debacle is an illustration of why the NCAA no longer works.

I've seen TONS of complaints that "the NIL and the portal are ruining football" and "somebody needs to do something about this NIL and portal madness" and "this is out of control and there's no way this should be like this."

So, the NCAA starts doing stuff to dampen NIL activity.

"OMG! Those bastards are trying to wreck football!" "You can't control NIL and they need to quit picking on us!" "Sue them out of existence!"

So, what do you guys want?

Do you want the Wild West of teams being able to recruit "by any means necessary" or do you want a body to have some oversight?

I think we’re inevitably headed for collective bargaining. @WoodsmanVol

The players themselves, along with their parents and independent agents, should be more than capable of looking out for themselves and bargaining collectively, but that’ll take time to organize.

I suspect at the back of at least some collectives’ minds lies the ambition to take the helm of such an organization.

Hell, it’s the solution the Sherman Act drives toward in these situations, and it’s worked delightfully to players’ advantages in MLB and the NBA.

No need to reinvent the wheel just because the players are also students.

NCAA still don’t have a straight answer for that one, which is the unifying key question in this entire controversy - i.e. what makes being a student athlete so special that would allow the NCAA to maintain a monopoly over the market for their labor?

I think that’s the issue that will ultimately force their drastic evolution or lay them in the grave.

 

[CAVPUT]

I don't see collective bargaining until the schools make players legal employees. I'm fairly sure they want none of that and all the costs and headaches that goes along with it. I also don't see a role for the NCAA if that happens. As employees, colleges can pay whatever they want and offer the benefits they want. It would be the brand new world without the NCAA that everyone dreams of. Having said that, you can kiss "equality" goodbye. As it is in the real world, it's dominated by deep pockets. You'd most certainly need to separate the power conferences with TV and money from the rest of the gang. Eventually it might get to this point, but I don't think I'll live to see it.

 

[CAVPUT]

Tennessee AG responds in lawsuit: 'NCAA defends a world that doesn’t exist'

The state of Tennessee lambasted the NCAA for defending "a world that doesn’t exist" in the latest exchange amid an antitrust lawsuit involving NIL.

www.tennessean.com

PSA....article is behind a pay wall.

 

[Dadof2Vols]

NIL is available for all students. Done.

You capping it for all students? Can all students of the university of Tennessee only make 100 million outside of school? Do they all have to show their employer agreements at the start of the semester?

You need to reread the ruling. Athletes cannot be treated different in regards to NIL. Period. No exceptions.

Based on the vitriol comments by SCOTUS I Pn the ruling they made it clear to NCAA they actually were restrained and basically told them don’t come back here you will lose.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

The hole is that you are capping NIL right for a player once season starts. NFL cap is pay. NIL is endorcement right. NFL does not cap NFL NIL right. What will legitimately happen is that an unknown player will suddenly ball out and a legit cookie company will offer them to endorce their product for a fee that if they except will put team over NIL cap. To stay within your cap, the player will be denied their right to accept.

He can live up to the allocation limits HE set and agreed to for the current period. It is part of an agreement between the player and the school.

If he is a bust does the school have remedies? Can they pull his scholly during the season for lack of performance? NIL becomes an element of the LOI PROCESS included or as an addendum. Any change request can be negotiated. School might pass, might not due to constraint or discretion.

It is now a business. Don’t think the employee model can fly. Schollies go away and tuition and Room and board become payable by student and checks have to cover taxes too, just like NFL. IRS is real funny about trying to hide benefits in an employee relationship.

 

[Dadof2Vols]

Sure, but you have to meet certain criteria to obtain an injunction. I'm unsure how you can prove the things required until something further occurs regarding this inquiry/investigation/whatever it's formally being called right now.

I agee with you. I think the TRO will be overruled but I think the judge will say if the NCAA should charge a school for NIL violations, that school can then ask for the TRO.

I think the AG will lose TRO but will eventually win his case.

If the judge should deny TRO but admonish NCAA, it would give the NCAA a way to back off of UT but they would then have to figure out how to win the case more make it go Away.

 

[Dadof2Vols]

The problem with this is you are tasking the colleges with capping something that they can't control. They don't pay for NIL.

Let's say you had a max NIL roster. Nike comes in and wants to sign your QB to an NIL deal and he agrees. This was a business decision between 2 people/company in which the college had zero say. Limiting that opportunity to a person will never fly in court.

Think man there is an easy solution to that. In the middle of season just go cut 20 other players with NIL deals so you can keep your QB. @GUNTERSVOL will tell you how easy it is.

 

[DaddyChad]

Just like you can have time requirements to register to vote, there are cutoff dates even getting into class, NIL OR NOT. Can you show me where a 24/7 365 requirement is detailed in the anti-trust legislation. Agreements define commitments and requirements on both sides and that could include the definition of the annual allocation limits by the school and a modification process. An increase may not be an issue if there is still cap room.

Yes, if they don’t like the school’s position, just like depth chart or other issues they can exercise their portal rights and join the thousands that are in there for ALL reasons. Just sync up NIL windows with signing days and portal windows. Might have to add special NIL driven waivers as an accommodation to the law, no big deal. They are free to negotiate following periods deals at all times.

Until the structure of the process creates a situation where there is no landing spot for a player, they are not constrained. The player has no right to demand a school allocate their cap space anymore than they do a scholarship in our current year to year world. Just another reason to “PROCESS “ squad members. Not worth a scholly or NOW the NIL Cap hit the player brings to the table. That flexibility is the only convenient aspect of current freedom extended to the players for the schools. Immediate playing time is out there if either side has to make a business decision.

Could this lead to multiple year scholarships and agreements? Maybe. An option. More trips to lower courts and the SCOTUS probably in our future. Starting here in Knoxville or Greenville maybe I heard.

To be clear MY PLAN, is not what the NCAA wants but an option they CAN be forced into without some control mechanisms I don’t see coming. NIL. Is a factor SIMILAR to NFL cap that is necessary to maintain SOME competitive balance for their members. Regardless of the sourcing of the money it is verifiable. Bet those NIL agreements are not lump sum, and have a payment schedule by period. It would be possible for a player to define his allocation requirements in excess of his current commitment. Just can’t exceed it.

You’re trying to cap NIL earnings and comparing it to NFL salary cap. NFL players are employees with a union to negotiate salary. There is no cap for endorsement earning. You’re comparing apples and oranges or hell in this case oranges and bowling balls. Market dictates what the player makes.

 

[ButchPlz]

You’re trying to cap NIL earnings and comparing it to NFL salary cap. NFL players are employees with a union to negotiate salary. There is no cap for endorsement earning. You’re comparing apples and oranges or hell in this case oranges and bowling balls. Market dictates what the player makes.

I can't imagine the mental circles someone has to run themselves through to:
1. watch an organization get obliterated in the Supreme Court for unfairly trying to influence a private market, then
2. try to say that the solution to the issue is to try to unfairly regulate a private market

 

[BP4Prez]

 

[Snapper58]

It seems to me to be two different issues here. One is the ability of student-athletes receiving NIL. The second is using the NIL process for recruiting. There does not seem to be a line drawn between the two and that is the problem. I don't think any university/NIL group should be able to go to another university and offer thier athletes money to transfer. Once they have decided to transfer (entered the portal) then yes they can negotiate. The problem with high school recruits is every state has different laws. At the time Nico was recruited, if a Tennessee athlete was offered that kind of money and paid, they would have lost their eligibility since Tennessee did not have a law to allow it at that time. It is a situation that needs to be defined. The NIL groups have to be defined and the old rules about boosters don't work with the current laws and legal decisions.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

He can live up to the allocation limits HE set and agreed to for the current period. It is part of an agreement between the player and the school.

If he is a bust does the school have remedies? Can they pull his scholly during the season for lack of performance? NIL becomes an element of the LOI PROCESS included or as an addendum. Any change request can be negotiated. School might pass, might not due to constraint or discretion.

It is now a business. Don’t think the employee model can fly. Schollies go away and tuition and Room and board become payable by student and checks have to cover taxes too, just like NFL. IRS is real funny about trying to hide benefits in an employee relationship.

When the portal appeared, the NCAA DID limit the timing. It was there's to limit.

You seem to think NIL exists ONLY related to the sports aspect of a person's life. It doesn't. There may be many reasons a person gets an NIL deal.

For the NCAA to limit a person's earnings OUTSIDE of sports is an immediate problem. The NCAA CAN tell the schools, "You can't provide NIL to athletes" because they govern the schools behavior toward athletes.

Stop thinking the NCAA governs player's entire lives. They don't. NIL is not JUST something that relates to school or athletics.

You are asking to be sued with any attempt to change a player's life because of NIL.

 

[volbound1700]

NCAA got punched in the mouth Friday by B1G and SEC as well. Frankly, both leagues, just basically said they are taking charge now and that directly impacts the University of Tennessee and says we probably won't get hit with any sanctions no matter what happens. Florida fans also need to fill good after that announcement as well (plus all the other schools that are rumored to be getting hit by NCAA infractions group).

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

I think we’re inevitably headed for collective bargaining. @WoodsmanVol

The players themselves, along with their parents and independent agents, should be more than capable of looking out for themselves and bargaining collectively, but that’ll take time to organize.

I suspect at the back of at least some collectives’ minds lies the ambition to take the helm of such an organization.

Hell, it’s the solution the Sherman Act drives toward in these situations, and it’s worked delightfully to players’ advantages in MLB and the NBA.

No need to reinvent the wheel just because the players are also students.

NCAA still don’t have a straight answer for that one, which is the unifying key question in this entire controversy - i.e. what makes being a student athlete so special that would allow the NCAA to maintain a monopoly over the market for their labor?

I think that’s the issue that will ultimately force their drastic evolution or lay them in the grave.

What makes you think the "student" label can be forced on an employee? Can the university force the workers in the registration office to go to school outside of training for their employment area?

What makes you think a business has the right to demand an athlete/employee go to school?

 

[chatt.vol]

It seems to me to be two different issues here. One is the ability of student-athletes receiving NIL. The second is using the NIL process for recruiting. There does not seem to be a line drawn between the two and that is the problem. I don't think any university/NIL group should be able to go to another university and offer thier athletes money to transfer. Once they have decided to transfer (entered the portal) then yes they can negotiate. The problem with high school recruits is every state has different laws. At the time Nico was recruited, if a Tennessee athlete was offered that kind of money and paid, they would have lost their eligibility since Tennessee did not have a law to allow it at that time. It is a situation that needs to be defined. The NIL groups have to be defined and the old rules about boosters don't work with the current laws and legal decisions.

I'm not really sure you have read anything on this matter.

First the collective Spyre has in their contracts that NIL doesn't apply to what school they attend.
Second Universities can't go to another university and recruit current players until they enter the portal.
Third when Nico was recruited Tennessee absolutely had a law that athletes could receive NIL. It was passed in 2021
Nico's NIL was signed in California under their laws which allowed high school athletes to receive NIL. Tennessee passed the same law in 2022.