Venezuela's Triumphant Socialist Paradise

#578
#578
Grand Vol said:
Instability in Venezuela?

Were cookies involved?
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Grand, domestic socialist policy is the catalyst for this. I can't blame the US for anything until Bolton gets involved with his 5000 troops.

Contrary to what you or others may think, I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of who is responsible. Venezuela is an example of failed domestic Marxism. Ukraine is an example of clear American intervention in regime change. Period.
 
#579
#579
Mick said:
https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/19/politics/us-syria-withdrawal/index.html
Trump orders rapid withdrawal from Syria in apparent reversal
December 19, 2018
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Yeah, except then he didn't, and got blamed a couple weeks ago when 4 Americans were killed in that car bombing.

The "rapid withdrawal" meant he was Putin's bitch, then when he decided against making it so rapid he gets blamed because people got killed.

Even if there was a deal (Putin takes bombers out of Venezuela, we take troops out of Syria), how exactly is that bad? Isn't that called a compromise? That happened all the time during the Cold War. I don't think anyone would say JFK or Nixon was a Soviet puppet.
 
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#580
#580
05_never_again said:
Yeah, except then he didn't, and got blamed a couple weeks ago when 4 Americans were killed in that car bombing.

The "rapid withdrawal" meant he was Putin's bitch, then when he decided against making it so rapid he gets blamed because people got killed.

Even if there was a deal (Putin takes bombers out of Venezuela, we take troops out of Syria), how exactly is that bad? Isn't that called a compromise? That happened all the time during the Cold War. I don't think anyone would say JFK or Nixon was a Soviet puppet.
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He immediately started moving equipment out of the country. In a compromise we should get something we want right? What is our interest in Venezuela?

I have no problem with leaving Syria if we can protect our allies in the region. That is the reason most high ranking military was against it. But Don't listen to the best military minds in the world. listen to Trump.
 
#581
#581
Mick said:
He immediately started moving equipment out of the country. In a compromise we should get something we want right? What is our interest in Venezuela?

I have no problem with leaving Syria if we can protect our allies in the region. That is the reason most high ranking military was against it. But Don't listen to the best military minds in the world. listen to Trump.
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That was the compromise. Our interest in Venezuela is oil, of course (as is Russia's), and the nation's government is in the hands of an anti-US guy, who is buddies with Putin. We'd rather have the other guy in there. Again, that doesn't exactly jive with the "Trump is a Russian asset" narrative. We'd rather not have Russian assets in our sphere of influence; we want to be able to play a hand in what happens there, and it helps if another foreign power moves their stuff out.

They moved out of somewhere we wanted them out of, we moved out of somewhere they wanted out of (although nowhere near as immediately as we initially said). We actually "won" the negotiation, because they are out of Venezuela (meanwhile, we're probably going in, at least into Colombia) and we're still in Syria, at least for a while.

Not every single tidbit is evidence that Trump is owned by Putin.
 
#582
#582
05_never_again said:
That was the compromise. Our interest in Venezuela is oil, of course (as is Russia's), and the nation's government is in the hands of an anti-US guy, who is buddies with Putin. We'd rather have the other guy in there. Again, that doesn't exactly jive with the "Trump is a Russian asset" narrative. We'd rather not have Russian assets in our sphere of influence; we want to be able to play a hand in what happens there, and it helps if another foreign power moves their stuff out.

They moved out of somewhere we wanted them out of, we moved out of somewhere they wanted out of (although nowhere near as immediately as we initially said). We actually "won" the negotiation, because they are out of Venezuela (meanwhile, we're probably going in, at least into Colombia) and we're still in Syria, at least for a while.

Not every single tidbit is evidence that Trump is owned by Putin.
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Just what is our Oil interest? Did we run out?

I'm actually looking at "our" interest in Venezuela. I don't see nation building as a viable option to get our hand on their oil. We won't hear about Venezuela in a couple of months unless we sent troops there. As I said before I'm backing Trump until there's a reason not to.
 
#583
#583
Mick said:
Just what is our Oil interest? Did we run out?

I'm actually looking at "our" interest in Venezuela. I don't see nation building as a viable option to get our hand on their oil. We won't hear about Venezuela in a couple of months unless we sent troops there.
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Same as our oil interest in the Middle East. Venezuela has oil, we'd like access to it. If Venezuela's, or much of the Middle East's biggest export was hand towels we'd never hear a thing about it.
 
#584
#584
05_never_again said:
Same as our oil interest in the Middle East. Venezuela has oil, we'd like access to it. If Venezuela's, or much of the Middle East's biggest export was hand towels we'd never hear a thing about it.
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Well don't act like it's an open hand slap to the face of Putin. Sanctioning Venezuelan oil benefits all oil producing countries.
 
#585
#585
Mick said:
Well don't act like it's an open hand slap to the face of Putin. Sanctioning Venezuelan oil benefits all oil producing countries.
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My point in all of this is that if the narrative being pushed is true, Trump should be heavily backing Maduro. He's Putin's bitch, remember?

"Sanctioning Venezuelan oil benefits all oil producing countries." Guess who the biggest oil producer is (hint: it ain't Russia).
 
#586
#586
05_never_again said:
My point in all of this is that if the narrative being pushed is true, Trump should be heavily backing Maduro. He's Putin's bitch, remember?

"Sanctioning Venezuelan oil benefits all oil producing countries." Guess who the biggest oil producer is (hint: it ain't Russia).
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By you own rationalization since Maduro and Putin are "buddes" this is a slap in the face of Putin, right?. You ever heard of one of Putin's close friends named Oleg Deripaska? I guess lifting the sanctions on him and his company is the equivalent to a reach around.
 
#587
#587
Mick said:
By you own rationalization since Maduro and Putin are "buddes" this is a slap in the face of Putin, right?. You ever heard of one of Putin's close friends named Oleg Deripaska? I guess lifting the sanctions on him and his company is the equivalent to a reach around.
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My point is that everyone is cherry-picking individual instances in a huge story in an attempt to prove a narrative. You can pick from a whole host of individual snippets out of a vast array of them and make it look like anything. Trump announced moving troops out of Syria - he's Putin's bitch! Then backtracked on that - he must not be compromised. US lifted sanctions on Rusal - he's Putin's bitch! US backs Putin's foil in Venezuela - he must not be compromised.

By that kind of logic, I wonder what kind of juicy info Iran or the Taliban had on Obama. I can play the same game the other way.
 
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#588
#588
05_never_again said:
My point is that everyone is cherry-picking individual instances in a huge story in an attempt to prove a narrative. You can pick from a whole host of individual snippets out of a vast array of them and make it look like anything. Trump announced moving troops out of Syria - he's Putin's bitch! Then backtracked on that - he must not be compromised. US lifted sanctions on Rusal - he's Putin's bitch! US backs Putin's foil in Venezuela - he must not be compromised.

By that kind of logic, I wonder what kind of juicy info Iran or the Taliban had on Obama. I can play the same game the other way.
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He does make a good point here ☝🏼
 
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#589
#589
05_never_again said:
My point is that everyone is cherry-picking individual instances in a huge story in an attempt to prove a narrative. You can pick from a whole host of individual snippets out of a vast array of them and make it look like anything. Trump announced moving troops out of Syria - he's Putin's bitch! Then backtracked on that - he must not be compromised. US lifted sanctions on Rusal - he's Putin's bitch! US backs Putin's foil in Venezuela - he must not be compromised.

By that kind of logic, I wonder what kind of juicy info Iran or the Taliban had on Obama. I can play the same game the other way.
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I'm not beholding to the belief that Russia has anything to do with our interest in the region, but if you want to give Trump any credit for the turmoil in the country (as a slap to the face of Putin) you would have to say he masterminded the coup.
 
#590
#590
Mick said:
Just what is our Oil interest? Did we run out?

I'm actually looking at "our" interest in Venezuela. I don't see nation building as a viable option to get our hand on their oil. We won't hear about Venezuela in a couple of months unless we sent troops there. As I said before I'm backing Trump until there's a reason not to.
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pretty sure we have a oil for debt program going with them. they couldn't pay us real money for the debt they owed, so we are taking some oil to pay their debts.
 
#591
#591
LouderVol said:
pretty sure we have a oil for debt program going with them. they couldn't pay us real money for the debt they owed, so we are taking some oil to pay their debts.
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You may be right about the debt IDK but we have been getting oil from venezuela. The top export destinations of Venezuela are the United States ($10.3B), China ($4.9B), India ($4.47B), Switzerland ($2.92B) and Singapore ($1.03B). The top import origins are the United States ($5.06B), China($2.52B), Brazil ($1.28B), Argentina ($706M) and Colombia ($613M).

I guess they have been paying us back in oil all along.
 
#592
#592
Mick said:
You may be right about the debt IDK but we have been getting oil from venezuela. The top export destinations of Venezuela are the United States ($10.3B), China ($4.9B), India ($4.47B), Switzerland ($2.92B) and Singapore ($1.03B). The top import origins are the United States ($5.06B), China($2.52B), Brazil ($1.28B), Argentina ($706M) and Colombia ($613M).

I guess they have been paying us back in oil all along.
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no idea on when they "defaulted". I had read a decent article on it, but now I can't find it.
 
#594
#594
Mick said:
I'm not beholding to the belief that Russia has anything to do with our interest in the region, but if you want to give Trump any credit for the turmoil in the country (as a slap to the face of Putin) you would have to say he masterminded the coup.
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I'm not giving Trump credit or saying he masterminded anything in Venezuela. All I'm saying is that Putin has an ally in the country, Maduro. Maduro currently has a rival for his power (Guaido), who Trump has recognized as the leader. If Trump is Putin's bitch, shouldn't he be heavily backing Maduro? For that matter, if Trump is Putin's bitch, should Donald become a huge ally of Iran and betray the Saudis? If Trump is Putin's bitch, it would make sense for them to have the same friends and the same enemies.
 
#595
#595
05_never_again said:
I'm not giving Trump credit or saying he masterminded anything in Venezuela. All I'm saying is that Putin has an ally in the country, Maduro. Maduro currently has a rival for his power (Guaido), who Trump has recognized as the leader. If Trump is Putin's bitch, shouldn't he be heavily backing Maduro? For that matter, if Trump is Putin's bitch, should Donald become a huge ally of Iran and betray the Saudis? If Trump is Putin's bitch, it would make sense for them to have the same friends and the same enemies.
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OMG, Trump says he's backing the leader of the coup somehow has everything to do with Russia and proves Trump is not Putin's bitch. Wag the dog. I'm so scared of Putin's retaliation for a Trump tweet.
 
#596
#596
Mick said:
OMG, Trump says he's backing the leader of the coup somehow has everything to do with Russia and proves Trump is not Putin's bitch. Wag the dog. I'm so scared of Putin's retaliation for a Trump tweet.
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I didn't say it proved anything. I think you are purposely missing the point of everything I'm saying. My point is that Trump does things in the realm of foreign policy that can be interpreted as being Putin's bitch and he also does things that can be interpreted that he's not Putin's bitch. BTW, the backing of Guaido was more than just a tweet. The official diplomatic stance of the United States at the moment is to not even recognize Maduro as the leader of the country. It's a bigger deal than you're making it out to be.

Obama did things that could be interpreted as being Iran's or the Taliban's bitch (Iran deal and Bergdahl deal). Both sides can play the same game.
 
#597
#597
05_never_again said:
I didn't say it proved anything. I think you are purposely missing the point of everything I'm saying. My point is that Trump does things in the realm of foreign policy that can be interpreted as being Putin's bitch and he also does things that can be interpreted that he's not Putin's bitch. BTW, the backing of Guaido was more than just a tweet. The official diplomatic stance of the United States at the moment is to not even recognize Maduro as the leader of the country. It's a bigger deal than you're making it out to be.

Obama did things that could be interpreted as being Iran's or the Taliban's bitch (Iran deal and Bergdahl deal). Both sides can play the same game.
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I'm not playing a game, I'm backing Trump. You are the one saying it's evidence he's not Putin's bitch. That is the narrative you are trying to portray.
 
#598
#598
Mick said:
I'm not playing a game, I'm backing Trump. You are the one saying it's evidence he's not Putin's bitch. That is the narrative you are trying to portray.
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There are individual bits and pieces of evidence that he is or isn't Putin's bitch. That's my point. On balance, I personally don't think there's much evidence, through his foreign policy actions, that he is Putin's bitch.

The anti-Trump crowd goes full-on hysterical when they claim a Trump statement like "We need to have better relations with Russia" as evidence that Trump is compromised.
 
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