Venezuela's Triumphant Socialist Paradise

[Grand Vol]

I've already spoken about them numerous times. I don't like theocrats. I don't like proto-facsicts. There are two of them.

Specifics? How have theocrats and proto-fascists affected you directly?

 

[Grand Vol]

You lay out the big issues and make some good points with respect to nation building.

I think you're mislabeling the problem as "liberalism" though. It's certainly not liberalism in the classical sense. And it's not liberalism in the liberal/conservative sense.

It's more akin to colonialism--imposing a system from outside. It's a very hard thing to figure out. The Venezuelans themselves might have a difficult time knowing what structure will restore stability

The using American companies to do rebuilding isn't "liberalism"--it's wanting to keep money in American hands for domestic political support.

I also wonder how much the oil industry had to do with wanting to keep Iraq a single state? Again, that's not liberalism.

I don't disagree necessarily.

 

[VolStrom]

I'm an easy target I guess. I've always leaned left. My concern is and will always be social issues. And yes, Red Hats keep pushing me further left in response to them. I'm not at Bernie level yet, but I'm getting pretty damn close. I might have to hold my nose the next go around. (Hopefully not with my Boy Pete running.)

Let me guess. You have a crappy job and don't make much money? Hence your disdain of conservatives because they, for the most part, believe in working for what you have and not relying on handouts from the government.

 

[hog88]

I've already spoken about them numerous times. I don't like theocrats. I don't like proto-facsicts. There are two of them.

LOL

The Dem candidates are closer to being “proto-fascists” than Trump.

 

[zeppelin128]

Let me guess. You have a crappy job and don't make much money? Hence your disdain of conservatives because they, for the most part, believe in working for what you have and not relying on handouts from the government.

You don't know **** about me. So take your opinion and shove it up your ass. I do not have a crappy job or wage, not that it is any of your damn business anyways. I dislike conservatives because of this, because of what you are doing right now. You specifically as a person is why I have a disdain for conservatives. So I can put you on ignore or you can block me. Your choice.

 

[Velo Vol]

WWII: "We just beat your ass six ways to Sunday, you pick up the pieces...okay, Communism is taking hold, so let's at least make some guarantees of loans and grants to help you rebuild. But you're doing the labor yourself."

I just skimmed a couple wiki articles on post-war Germany, and it is striking how quickly the US shifted gears from an economically repressive approach to dumping money on Germany, once the threat of communism spreading became real.

Allied plans for German industry after World War II - Wikipedia

 

[Grand Vol]

I just skimmed a couple wiki articles on post-war Germany, and it is striking how quickly the US shifted gears from an economically repressive approach to dumping money on Germany, once the threat of communism spreading became real.

Allied plans for German industry after World War II - Wikipedia

Yes. My point was more of the Germans rebuilt Germany rather than the Allies shipping in workers to do it for them. Same thing in Japan.

 

[VolStrom]

You don't know **** about me. So take your opinion and shove it up your ass. I do not have a crappy job or wage, not that it is any of your damn business anyways. I dislike conservatives because of this, because of what you are doing right now. You specifically as a person is why I have a disdain for conservatives. So I can put you on ignore or you can block me. Your choice.

Triggered the inner hate I see.

 

[Grand Vol]

You don't know **** about me. So take your opinion and shove it up your ass. I do not have a crappy job or wage, not that it is any of your damn business anyways. I dislike conservatives because of this, because of what you are doing right now. You specifically as a person is why I have a disdain for conservatives. So I can put you on ignore or you can block me. Your choice.

Some random poster on a message board is why you are slipping more left?

 

[zeppelin128]

Triggered the inner hate I see.

No inner hate. Just calling you out on the ******** you drug out of your ass about me.

 

[Velo Vol]

Yes. My point was more of the Germans rebuilt Germany rather than the Allies shipping in workers to do it for them. Same thing in Japan.

An aside, but on the US post-war occupation:

A few weeks ago I was at a lecture on a film about the Nuremberg trials. The U.S. government showed it (and other news reel films) pretty widely in Germany. They wanted to know what the Germans really thought of it. And really a survey doesn't cut it because people might not answer such honestly. So the department that did this embedded people to loiter around the theaters and nearby cafes to eavesdrop on what the Germans were saying among themselves.

I believe there's reports on this you can still read today.

 

[C/O]

Glad to see you all are keeping it civil in here. Grow up and get back on topic. Internet pissing contests don’t help or benefit anyone.

 

[Grand Vol]

No inner hate. Just calling you out on the ******** you drug out of your ass about me.

So...

Still waiting on the specific examples of fascist and theocratic behavior.

 

[VolStrom]

So...

Still waiting on the specific examples of fascist and theocratic behavior.

You'll be waiting a while GV, he is not too stable mentally.

 

[0nelilreb]

I'm an easy target I guess. I've always leaned left. My concern is and will always be social issues. And yes, Red Hats keep pushing me further left in response to them. I'm not at Bernie level yet, but I'm getting pretty damn close. I might have to hold my nose the next go around. (Hopefully not with my Boy Pete running.)

Not trying to target you , I was raised in a family full of southern democrats , all my neighbors were democrats , I was a chief shop steward in a union of over 400 people 99% was democrats . I can say both party’s have changed but the Democratic Party I grew up with has changed the most . There’s not a bigger sin I can think of for the party than to do what Hillary did in West Virginia standing up in front of a room full of union coal workers , telling them “ we will shut the coal companies down “ then asking for their votes . The Dems have moved away from the middle class and union workers for the progressive liberal vote . This is going to cause you more problems as you march further left , sooner or later the socialist programs are going to cost the middle class more in taxes .. you can’t avoid it , you can only delay it .

 

[Grand Vol]

You'll be waiting a while GV, he is not too stable mentally.

I think it's a legitimate question and point of debate. Such actions, if they happened to a specific person or were widespread enough, would cause a person to shift their political beliefs. So, I'm wondering if he was a victim of such a thing and if that's what's skewing his perception of conservatives.

 

[Velo Vol]

There’s not a bigger sin I can think of for the party than to do what Hillary did in West Virginia standing up in front of a room full of union coal workers , telling them “ we will shut the coal companies down “ then asking for their votes

It was at a CNN town hall in Ohio.

 

[Velo Vol]

You'll be waiting a while GV, he is not too stable mentally.

You don't know anything about who he is, obviously.

 

[1972 Grad]

You don't know anything about who he is, obviously.

It is a bit unusual for him to completely fly off the handle based on the interactions with him that I have read.

 

[AM64]

I was agreeing with your point. I don't think we have any business getting involved militarily in Venezuela. Nor do I think politically even except to denounce the actions of the current regime. If they want to overthrow Maduro and stay socialist, we should have **** all to say about it. That's their choice. You want to know why?

I'm haunted by the ghosts of Iraq and Afghanistan at the moment as we, as a nation and militarily, have no problem winning wars. But winning the peace somehow eludes us after we get involved. Furthermore, I have no faith in our government as a whole to plot a course the way the Marshall Plan was fomented and let Venezuelans rebuild Venezuela. There are too many "feel good" liberals at all levels of government that think "government is best and government knows what you need" that would assert their own personal opinions on how it should be run and rebuilt and those silly Venezuelans just don't know what they are doing. I just don't trust our government to get the job done. I trust our military to defeat any enemy, but I have zero trust in our government to win the peace afterwards.

We knew the likely path needed in Iraq. We knew there really needed to be three distinct nations formed after we liberated that nation: a Sunni, a Shi'a and a Kurd nation. But we didn't want to piss off the Turks by granting a free Kurdistan. We were afraid of Iranian influence in a Shi'a nation on the border with Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. We didn't want the Sunni Ba'ath Party back in control of anything. So, we forced an unacceptable solution on all three and ended up trying to rebuild it the way we thought it needed to be rebuilt. Not even going to get into the way we supported companies bringing in tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of laborers to rebuilt Iraq when you had a population there willing to do it themselves. We ****ed it up royally. I doubt we have changed enough in the past 15 years not to do it again.

I think we've moved too far left for us to just go in, Hulk smash whatever gets in our way and allow the people of that nation to chart their own destiny. With our assistance if they request it, but allowing them the ability to determine their own path in the aftermath. West Germany and Japan after WWII should be our model of how to let a country rebuild and become stronger with our assistance rather than by us telling them exactly what they should do. Those nations rebuilt themselves. We provided material and economic support, but Germans and Japanese rebuilt their countries into what I think were far greater nations than they were pre-War.

There is no reason Iraq or Venezuela with the resources and manpower they have shouldn't be (or have been) able to rebuild in a minimal amount of time with the economic engines they have. Hell, open up Venezuela to tourism in the aftermath, put up a bunch of resorts under the price of the competition and watch the cash flow run in like a casino in Vegas.

TL;DR Version

We don't need to get involved militarily in Venezuela because we'll screw it up in the aftermath like we did with Iraq.

I get what you are saying, and why. When you look at Japan in particular, they were monolithic (if that's the correct term ... pretty much one national identity) and easily united behind a leader. The Germans tend to be regimented and, therefore, similar. Iran, Afghanistan, most of South America are more like herding cats ... different reasons but same basic result. S America is a collection of screwed up countries probably due to a temperament prone to corruption and disunity ... a Latin thing we can't fix. So, yeah, trying to fix that on a US model is a problem ... of course, their migrants have no problem with coming here because they like the safety and future that the US model provides them. I'm honestly not sure there is a solution to the Latin temperament with regard to unity and governance.

We can either choose to sit back and watch somebody else fill the vacuum ... Russia, Cuba, China; or we can support a faction. I don't think Russia, Cuba, and China have strayed far beyond the old Soviet Union (Russia Inc if you want to get right down to it). They will back a socialist/communist dictator as always with people coming out poorer for it ... at least the ones still living, or we can wade in and try to do something productive (at least there's not the Sunni, Shi'a, Kurd type issue). We should at least find and support a decent anti socialist leader. Whether there's a right or a wrong set of people in our government to do something right is a good question, but allowing the wrong countries to decide what should be an internal Venezuelan decision is no way to go either.

After congress denied the funds that caused South Vietnam to collapse while Russia and China still continued pumping aid to N Vietnam, Nixon stated:

... in the future, unless a major power intervened in a Third World conflict, the U.S. should not commit its combat forces. We should provide military and economic aid to the target countries equal to that provided to the insurgents by the Soviet bloc, but the country under attack should have the responsibility for providing the men for its defense. If after being adequately trained and armed to defeat an insurgency a country still lacked the will and capability to fight and win, our doing the fighting for them would at best provide only temporary success. Once we left, the enemy would take over. We should never again make the mistake we made in Vietnam.

That course seems to make sense in Venezuela. If there is a reasonable opposition, support them; if they are unwilling or incapable of carrying on the struggle, then don't beat a dead horse. Whether people in this country believe (or the media allow them to believe), the people of Venezuela will be the better for our assistance particularly if dictatorial socialism is defeated.

 

[82_VOL_83]

It is a bit unusual for him to completely fly off the handle based on the interactions with him that I have read.

Only when you get to close to home.

 

[marcusluvsvols]

Despite our political differences, i like Zep. I understand why he was rightly offended, any decent man takes pride in his ability to provide for himself and family, and for Strom to insult that wasnt necessary. It would have really pissed me off, too

I like Strom though, and while his remark was unnecessarily disrespectful, the basis of it comes from a logical place. My family is far from rich, but just as a middle class person who already pays a ridiculous amount of taxes every year... i cannot see any rational reason for anyone who lives above the poverty line to ever vote for these socialists. We can even afford the entitlements we have now...with my check getting butt raped before I ever get it...if even 25% of the socialist BS being "planned" by the dem candidates makes it to law, the tax burden on those who do actually pay taxes...not the 47% who dont...will have to double. "Soak the rich, " doesnt work. There arent enough of them, and they already pay a huge % of the revenue that is now collected by the .gov...even if their personal rate isnt as high as some. There is absolutely NO logical reason any intelligent person could vote Democrat based on fiscal policy or personal finances, unless they are already on the teet...and want even more free sheet.

If a man wants to say he votes Dem based on social issues...fine. My beliefs dont line up with theirs, though I am much more libertarianish when it comes to social things than straight conservative....but as far as the fiscal side of things, or personal finances...if you are a Democrat, and not already on the dole from Uncle Sam...you are either very deficient in math and economics, or willingly putting a gun to your financial head and blowing your brain out. It really is that cut and dried.

I honestly have trouble telling if most of the stuff i hear from these socialist candidates is from ,"the onion" the **** is so far out there...i thought bernie was so far socialist that there was no way anyone running for office in the US freaking A could ever come close to as commie as him....now he is starting to look moderate in his own party...it truly is unbelievable...and WW2 and cold war vets that gave their careers and lives to fight the spread of a terrible communist ideology that has FAILED MISERABLY EVERY SINGLE TIME IT HAS BEEN IMPLEMENTED...are rolling over in their graves to see this crap even being DISCUSSED in our country as a possibility...

Look at freakin Venezuela!!!!! Right now...socialism can be voted in, but after it always fails, it has to be removed with the barrels of civil war guns....how can these morons try to start that here???? How can uou be that damnnn stupid???

 

[82_VOL_83]

Despite our political differences, i like Zep. I understand why he was rightly offended, any decent man takes pride in his ability to provide for himself and family, and for Strom to insult that wasnt necessary. It would have really pissed me off, too

I like Strom though, and while his remark was unnecessarily disrespectful, the basis of it comes from a logical place. My family is far from rich, but just as a middle class person who already pays a ridiculous amount of taxes every year... i cannot see any rational reason for anyone who lives above the poverty line to ever vote for these socialists. We can even afford the entitlements we have now...with my check getting butt raped before I ever get it...if even 25% of the socialist BS being "planned" by the dem candidates makes it to law, the tax burden on those who do actually pay taxes...not the 47% who dont...will have to double. "Soak the rich, " doesnt work. There arent enough of them, and they already pay a huge % of the revenue that is now collected by the .gov...even if their personal rate isnt as high as some. There is absolutely NO logical reason any intelligent person could vote Democrat based on fiscal policy or personal finances, unless they are already on the teet...and want even more free sheet.

If a man wants to say he votes Dem based on social issues...fine. My beliefs dont line up with theirs, though I am much more libertarianish when it comes to social things than straight conservative....but as far as the fiscal side of things, or personal finances...if you are a Democrat, and not already on the dole from Uncle Sam...you are either very deficient in math and economics, or willingly putting a gun to your financial head and blowing your brain out. It really is that cut and dried.

I honestly have trouble telling if most of the stuff i hear from these socialist candidates is from ,"the onion" the **** is so far out there...i thought bernie was so far socialist that there was no way anyone running for office in the US freaking A could ever come close to as commie as him....now he is starting to look moderate in his own party...it truly is unbelievable...and WW2 and cold war vets that gave their careers and lives to fight the spread of a terrible communist ideology that has FAILED MISERABLY EVERY SINGLE TIME IT HAS BEEN IMPLEMENTED...are rolling over in their graves to see this crap even being DISCUSSED in our country as a possibility...

Look at freakin Venezuela!!!!! Right now...socialism can be voted in, but after it always fails, it has to be removed with the barrels of civil war guns....how can these morons try to start that here???? How can uou be that damnnn stupid???

The guy they are trying to put in is a hard line socialist. I just don't think he will crush the people with it.......think more of Canadian socialism.

 

[marcusluvsvols]

I didnt know Gaido? Was a socialist, too...but he claims he has no desire to lead except as an interim until free democratic elections cam be held and a legit president elected...are all the would be candidates there socialists? Are the people dumb enough to vote for it again?

 

[82_VOL_83]

I didnt know Gaido? Was a socialist, too...but he claims he has no desire to lead except as an interim until free democratic elections cam be held and a legit president elected...are all the would be candidates there socialists? Are the people dumb enough to vote for it again?

I just know he's a socialist. For a country in ruins, a socialist leaning leader who is open to change might not be a bad thing to start......as long as he sticks to his promises of free elections. There will have to be massive foreign aid pumped in to stabilize the populace.....too many people starving.