Venezuela's Triumphant Socialist Paradise

#1,301
#1,301
Grand Vol said:
I guess that's a benefit of Congress not approving anything the President wants to do for the last ten years.
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Just because its SSDD doesnt mean we shouldn't call it out. If anything we should just be getting louder.

Hopefully Trump does keep us in check.
 
#1,302
#1,302
LouderVol said:
Just because its SSDD doesnt mean we shouldn't call it out. If anything we should just be getting louder.

Hopefully Trump does keep us in check.
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I was agreeing with your point. I don't think we have any business getting involved militarily in Venezuela. Nor do I think politically even except to denounce the actions of the current regime. If they want to overthrow Maduro and stay socialist, we should have **** all to say about it. That's their choice. You want to know why?

I'm haunted by the ghosts of Iraq and Afghanistan at the moment as we, as a nation and militarily, have no problem winning wars. But winning the peace somehow eludes us after we get involved. Furthermore, I have no faith in our government as a whole to plot a course the way the Marshall Plan was fomented and let Venezuelans rebuild Venezuela. There are too many "feel good" liberals at all levels of government that think "government is best and government knows what you need" that would assert their own personal opinions on how it should be run and rebuilt and those silly Venezuelans just don't know what they are doing. I just don't trust our government to get the job done. I trust our military to defeat any enemy, but I have zero trust in our government to win the peace afterwards.

We knew the likely path needed in Iraq. We knew there really needed to be three distinct nations formed after we liberated that nation: a Sunni, a Shi'a and a Kurd nation. But we didn't want to piss off the Turks by granting a free Kurdistan. We were afraid of Iranian influence in a Shi'a nation on the border with Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. We didn't want the Sunni Ba'ath Party back in control of anything. So, we forced an unacceptable solution on all three and ended up trying to rebuild it the way we thought it needed to be rebuilt. Not even going to get into the way we supported companies bringing in tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of laborers to rebuilt Iraq when you had a population there willing to do it themselves. We ****ed it up royally. I doubt we have changed enough in the past 15 years not to do it again.

I think we've moved too far left for us to just go in, Hulk smash whatever gets in our way and allow the people of that nation to chart their own destiny. With our assistance if they request it, but allowing them the ability to determine their own path in the aftermath. West Germany and Japan after WWII should be our model of how to let a country rebuild and become stronger with our assistance rather than by us telling them exactly what they should do. Those nations rebuilt themselves. We provided material and economic support, but Germans and Japanese rebuilt their countries into what I think were far greater nations than they were pre-War.

There is no reason Iraq or Venezuela with the resources and manpower they have shouldn't be (or have been) able to rebuild in a minimal amount of time with the economic engines they have. Hell, open up Venezuela to tourism in the aftermath, put up a bunch of resorts under the price of the competition and watch the cash flow run in like a casino in Vegas.

TL;DR Version

We don't need to get involved militarily in Venezuela because we'll screw it up in the aftermath like we did with Iraq.
 
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#1,303
#1,303
Grand Vol said:
I was agreeing with your point. I don't think we have any business getting involved militarily in Venezuela. Nor do I think politically even except to denounce the actions of the current regime. If they want to overthrow Maduro and stay socialist, we should have **** all to say about it. That's their choice. You want to know why?

I'm haunted by the ghosts of Iraq and Afghanistan at the moment as we, as a nation and militarily, have no problem winning wars. But winning the peace somehow eludes us after we get involved. Furthermore, I have no faith in our government as a whole to plot a course the way the Marshall Plan was fomented and let Venezuelans rebuild Venezuela. There are too many "feel good" liberals at all levels of government that think "government is best and government knows what you need" that would assert their own personal opinions on how it should be run and rebuilt and those silly Venezuelans just don't know what they are doing. I just don't trust our government to get the job done. I trust our military to defeat any enemy, but I have zero trust in our government to win the peace afterwards.

We knew the likely path needed in Iraq. We knew there really needed to be three distinct nations formed after we liberated that nation: a Sunni, a Shi'a and a Kurd nation. But we didn't want to piss off the Turks by granting a free Kurdistan. We were afraid of Iranian influence in a Shi'a nation on the border with Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. We didn't want the Sunni Ba'ath Party back in control of anything. So, we forced an unacceptable solution on all three and ended up trying to rebuild it the way we thought it needed to be rebuilt. Not even going to get into the way we supported companies bringing in tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of laborers to rebuilt Iraq when you had a population there willing to do it themselves. We ****ed it up royally. I doubt we have changed enough in the past 15 years not to do it again.

I think we've moved too far left for us to just go in, Hulk smash whatever gets in our way and allow the people of that nation to chart their own destiny. With our assistance if they request it, but allowing them the ability to determine their own path in the aftermath. West Germany and Japan after WWII should be our model of how to let a country rebuild and become stronger with our assistance rather than by us telling them exactly what they should do. Those nations rebuilt themselves. We provided material and economic support, but Germans and Japanese rebuilt their countries into what I think were far greater nations than they were pre-War.

There is no reason Iraq or Venezuela with the resources and manpower they have shouldn't be (or have been) able to rebuild in a minimal amount of time with the economic engines they have. Hell, open up Venezuela to tourism in the aftermath, put up a bunch of resorts under the price of the competition and watch the cash flow run in like a casino in Vegas.

TL;DR Version

We don't need to get involved militarily in Venezuela because we'll screw it up in the aftermath like we did with Iraq.
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Aside from you blaming liberals for everything, this is a solid post.
 
#1,304
#1,304
zeppelin128 said:
Aside from you blaming liberals for everything, this is a solid post.
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What is inaccurate about it? Is "helping others because we think they can't help themselves!" not a core liberal belief?

Compare and contrast what we did in WWII against the Axis powers versus what we did in Iraq...

WWII: "We just beat your ass six ways to Sunday, you pick up the pieces...okay, Communism is taking hold, so let's at least make some guarantees of loans and grants to help you rebuild. But you're doing the labor yourself."

vs:

Iraq: "We just destroyed your military and your country is suffering! OMG! We must help you rebuild! But it's going to be the way WE want it rebuilt! And the government WE think would be best will be put into power by US! We'll bring in a labor force and rebuild for you! You don't have to do anything except sit around and watch laborers do jobs you could do! I mean, I know you want to do that job and provide for your family, but we want to do it for you since you're just so pitiful and we're the cause of your problems!"

Yes, liberalism was very evident in Iraq. We forgot the lessons of WWII regarding "making friends and influencing people" and decided Americanism is the only way that works regardless of the historical and current underlying conditions in a nation.
 
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#1,305
#1,305
Grand Vol said:
What is inaccurate about it? Is "helping others because we think they can't help themselves!" not a core liberal belief?

Compare and contrast what we did in WWII against the Axis powers versus what we did in Iraq...

WWII: "We just beat your ass six ways to Sunday, you pick up the pieces...okay, Communism is taking hold, so let's at least make some guarantees of loans and grants to help you rebuild. But you're doing the labor yourself."

vs:

Iraq: "We just destroyed your military and your country is suffering! OMG! We must help you rebuild! But it's going to be the way WE want it rebuilt! And the government WE think would be best will be put into power by US! We'll bring in a labor force and rebuild for you! You don't have to do anything except sit around and watch laborers do jobs you could do! I mean, I know you want to do that job and provide for your family, but we want to do it for you since you're just so pitiful and we're the cause of your problems!"

Yes, liberalism was very evident in Iraq. We forgot the lessons of WWII regarding "making friends and influencing people" and decided Americanism is the only way that works regardless of the historical and current underlying conditions in a nation.
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Well after reading your rant and understanding your definition of liberalism, we agree. We should have a parade or something.
 
#1,307
#1,307
zeppelin128 said:
My only disagreement with your post is this notion that Dems/Progressives hate America and do not put America first. I disagree often with Republicans, Conservatives, and sometimes Democrats, but I never question their patriotism. We just have different ideas about how to solve problems.
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When their "different ideas about how to solve problems" include open borders, government-managed healthcare, abortion on demand, universal basic income, repealing or replacing Constitutional Amendments that they don't like, voting rights for imprisoned felons, and disarming the citizens of this nation...then yes, I would in fact question their patriotism. Perhaps a review of how Webster defines "patriotism" would help illustrate my point.

Their version of the United States of America is a socialist paradise, plain and simple. History is thick with examples of how similar schemes have failed miserably. The definition of political insanity is...you know the rest.

I'd love to see any one of them go stand in the middle of Arlington National Cemetery and lecture us on what is best for this nation. Anybody got a pic of AOC laying at wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown?

We just disagree, zep. Like I say a lot around here, it is what it is.
 
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#1,308
#1,308
GreyWolf1129 said:
When their "different ideas about how to solve problems" include open borders, government-managed healthcare, abortion on demand, universal basic income, repealing or replacing Constitutional Amendments that they don't like, voting rights for imprisoned felons, and disarming the citizens of this nation...then yes, I would in fact question their patriotism. Perhaps a review of how Webster defines "patriotism" would help illustrate my point.

Their version of the United States of America is a socialist paradise, plain and simple. History is thick with examples of how similar schemes have failed miserably. The definition of political insanity is...you know the rest.

I'd love to see any one of them go stand in the middle of Arlington National Cemetery and lecture us on what is best for this nation. Anybody got a pic of AOC laying at wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown?

We just disagree, zep. Like I say a lot around here, it is what it is.
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We will just disagree then. No need to beat a dead horse. As you said, it is what it is.
 
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#1,312
#1,312
37L1 said:
Don't blame others for your poor choices.
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That isn't really blaming anyone, I've always been a lefty. I don't see that changing, and if anything Trump, Pence, and Red Hat extraordinaires have kept me firmly in the evil Comrade area.
 
#1,318
#1,318
zeppelin128 said:
It isn't an excuse, just the truth. I've always been a social lefty, I don't see that changing. Trump and his supporters are absolutely pushing me further left.
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Why is that exactly? What specifically have they done to "push" you onto a path even you might disagree with?
 
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#1,319
#1,319
zeppelin128 said:
It isn't an excuse, just the truth. I've always been a social lefty, I don't see that changing. Trump and his supporters are absolutely pushing me further left.
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I find this an interesting concept , as far as I can tell Trump hasn’t taken anyone’s rights away from them , hasn’t enslaved the masses or kicked anyone’s dog yet but somehow he is driving the left more left . We now have open socialists running for POTUS preaching wealth redistribution and giving felons in prison the vote , and in congress trying to scare the masses into thinking we only have 12 years left on earth , but it’s Trump pushing people to the hard left . I’m thinking Trump is just a really handy punching bag and excuse to see how far left we can take the machine without it breaking . Extremes are never good , it doesn’t matter what party you see yourself in .
 
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#1,323
#1,323
0nelilreb said:
I find this an interesting concept , as far as I can tell Trump hasn’t taken anyone’s rights away from them , hasn’t enslaved the masses or kicked anyone’s dog yet but somehow he is driving the left more left . We now have open socialists running for POTUS preaching wealth redistribution and giving felons in prison the vote , and in congress trying to scare the masses into thinking we only have 12 years left on earth , but it’s Trump pushing people to the hard left . I’m thinking Trump is just a really handy punching bag and excuse to see how far left we can take the machine without it breaking . Extremes are never good , it doesn’t matter what party you see yourself in .
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I'm an easy target I guess. I've always leaned left. My concern is and will always be social issues. And yes, Red Hats keep pushing me further left in response to them. I'm not at Bernie level yet, but I'm getting pretty damn close. I might have to hold my nose the next go around. (Hopefully not with my Boy Pete running.)
 
#1,325
#1,325
Grand Vol said:
Yes, liberalism was very evident in Iraq. We forgot the lessons of WWII regarding "making friends and influencing people" and decided Americanism is the only way that works regardless of the historical and current underlying conditions in a nation.
Click to expand...

You lay out the big issues and make some good points with respect to nation building.

I think you're mislabeling the problem as "liberalism" though. It's certainly not liberalism in the classical sense. And it's not liberalism in the liberal/conservative sense.

It's more akin to colonialism--imposing a system from outside. It's a very hard thing to figure out. The Venezuelans themselves might have a difficult time knowing what structure will restore stability

The using American companies to do rebuilding isn't "liberalism"--it's wanting to keep money in American hands for domestic political support.

I also wonder how much the oil industry had to do with wanting to keep Iraq a single state? Again, that's not liberalism.
 
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