War in Ukraine

[MontyPython]

Every day for @volgr here on the PF...

 

[MontyPython]

I'm sure you believe that because of the fake news you consume. Ukraine is really winning, meanwhile Russia holds referendums that will likely secede a large portion of Ukraine territory to Russia and is mobilizing a large force to protect those referendums. If that isn't winning for Ukraine, I don't know what is...right Monty?

You seriously don't understand a damn thing about this war.

Troll all you want, Russia still loses in the end.

 

[LouderVol]

You're wrong again. This all started due to the western backed coup which ousted the democratically elected Yanukovych.

I didnt start when Russia bought him off?

I think that invalidates any election. Especially when it's the people that voted for him, and the government that ran him off.

 

[LSU-SIU]

I'm sure you believe that because of the fake news you consume. Ukraine is really winning, meanwhile Russia holds referendums that will likely secede a large portion of Ukraine territory to Russia and is mobilizing a large force to protect those referendums. If that isn't winning for Ukraine, I don't know what is...right Monty?

Realistically there isn't much for the Ukraine to win. Those realistically don't exist on the table right now, its about how much they lose.

They have been setup.

 

[LouderVol]

Do the trolls and idiots in this thread not realize the US has provoked Russia into further escalation that will only result in more Ukraine deaths and loss of land?

Why are these yahoos happy about that?

Why is it never Russia provoking the US to action?

Depending on what fits your argument I know you change your stance, but we have existed longer than this version of Russia, and longer than the USSR.

They are the new comers provoking the rest of us that have been around for more than 30 years.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Why is it never Russia provoking the US to action?
.

Why are we talking about the United States? Why is the United States supplying them with arms, money, training, and intelligence? That's the problem.... we're talking about the United States. None of this is our business.

 

[LouderVol]

That's called war, the Ukraine did the same thing. If there were invaders here, the same thing would happen. My guess is the draft will be back in this country before too long. So what?

I'm not sure what you are going on about. Those people in crimea don't look enslaved, to be honest it looks better than than most inner cities here. LoL

You guys are taking all this very personal which is clouding rational thinking, imo.

Werent you the one saying you would never fight someone else's war? That our military was enslavement? How is Russia's any different?

And is russia finally at war? I must have missed that announcement from Putin.

Keep reaching and dodging the questions to dance with non existent arguments to make yourself feel better.

 

[volgr]

And those referendums are going to be completely ignored by every country not named Russia regardless of the outcomes. Just like all their other BS referendums to date Larry.

And no you clearly don’t know what winning is.

I think Crimea has been respected. We'll see if Putin is all talk if these locations are attacked after voting to join Russia. Honestly, Putin has been all talk as Russian territory was already attacked months ago. We'll see if this mobilization changes anything.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Werent you the one saying you would never fight someone else's war? That our military was enslavement? How is Russia's any different?

Its not. I never said I wouldn't fight someone again, I'm just not going to be in someone's military again taking orders. If I have die because of it, so be it. My days of taking orders like that are over.

If someone really doesn't want to join up, its probably better to put them in jail or something... imo. But usually people eventually go along with the plan.

And is russia finally at war? I must have missed that announcement from Putin.

There are no real moves for the Ukraine on the table that really will change the outcome. This is just about how much the Ukraine loses at this point.

I would tell you the same thing if the Ukraine went to war with the U.S., they have no realistic option on the table to win anything of real value.

Keep reaching and dodging the questions to dance with non existent arguments to make yourself feel better.

Most of this is just observations. 2+2=4

You are taking all this very personal and its clouding your ability to rationally think, imo.

 

[NorthDallas40]

I think Crimea has been respected. We'll see if Putin is all talk if these locations are attacked after voting to join Russia. Honestly, Putin has been all talk as Russian territory was already attacked months ago. We'll see if this mobilization changes anything.

You think wrong. The Crimea referendum has categorically been rejected or conveniently ignored by all countries not named Russia. And Putin is going to respond by sending a bunch more Russian kids to their deaths now armed with Mosin Nagants. Here is your chance to get a classic bolt action Russian rifle for free Larry!

 

[volgr]

Why is it never Russia provoking the US to action?

Depending on what fits your argument I know you change your stance, but we have existed longer than this version of Russia, and longer than the USSR.

They are the new comers provoking the rest of us that have been around for more than 30 years.

How is Russia provoking the West?

 

[volgr]

You think wrong. The Crimea referendum has categorically been rejected or conveniently ignored by all countries not named Russia.

They can deny it all they want, words are cheap, but they aren't denying it in action.

 

[LouderVol]

You think Russia is being curb stomped? They are holding referendums in Kherson and parts of the Donbas. They have annihilated the NATO trained Ukraine army, wiping out over a third (and most of their best fighting forces) of their pre-war force. Meanwhile, Russia has partially mobilized, calling up 300k reserves who will be ready to go if Ukraine strikes Russian territory (including Crimea and newly acquired lands through current referendums). Ukraine has lost horribly, Europe has lost horribly and the US to a lesser extent.

So why were these referendums only held while Russia was losing territory? You really believe that was a spontaneous decision?

And werent you in the crowd asking why Ukraine needed weapons if they were winning? But now that Russia needs to tripple the troops they started with that means they are winning?

The wars not over, but you dont escalate if you are winning.

And if Ukraine has lost a 1/3, why does Russia need three times as many men? Seems like they could have a draw down with all these losses they have inflicted on Ukraine. Especially now that Ukraine has been drawn out of their defensive positions? A light breeze should knock Ukraine over now, surely.

 

[LSU-SIU]

They can deny it all they want, words are cheap, but they aren't denying it in action.

Governments and people don't recognize all kinds of territories and such, so what? LoL

These people all think they can get what the want by using twitter.

 

[NorthDallas40]

They can deny it all they want, words are cheap, but they aren't denying it in action.

They are literally arming Ukraine daily and Ukraine is using the aid to run Russia’s ass back to the starting point. That is the reality Larry not the ridiculous propaganda you spread here when you crawl back to try and score a few quick Rubles.

 

[LouderVol]

How is Russia provoking the West?

Nukes....they fell their aircraft into our air space not to long ago. They have threatened to blow up anyone arming Ukraine.

Again depending on which side of the flip flop you are on now Russia is choosing to not sell oil to Europe. Even more so than the sanctions. According to Ras's WW2 logic that's an act of war. Of course he wont ever hold a consistent argument. Or I am sure that the argument will become that it's the sanctions fault and that Russia isnt withholding anything. Flip flop, flip flop.

 

[LSU-SIU]

The wars not over, but you dont escalate if you are winning.

They won the war, its just about how much they win (and losses incurred for what is gained).

I would say the west continues to escalate, the responses are just the product of the escalation.

 

[volgr]

Governments and people don't recognize all kinds of territories and such, so what? LoL

These people all think they can get what the want by using twitter.

US also doesn't recognize Maduro as leader of Venezuela...yet there he is.

 

[tvolsfan]

 

[volgr]

Nukes....they fell their aircraft into our air space not to long ago. They have threatened to blow up anyone arming Ukraine.

Again depending on which side of the flip flop you are on now Russia is choosing to not sell oil to Europe. Even more so than the sanctions. According to Ras's WW2 logic that's an act of war. Of course he wont ever hold a consistent argument. Or I am sure that the argument will become that it's the sanctions fault and that Russia isnt withholding anything. Flip flop, flip flop.

Seems to me most of those on your list were Russian reactions to US actions.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Nukes....they fell their aircraft into our air space not to long ago. They have threatened to blow up anyone arming Ukraine.

If you enter the fray the wrong way, that's on you. Europe/U.S. are playing a dangerous game.

Again depending on which side of the flip flop you are on now Russia is choosing to not sell oil to Europe. Even more so than the sanctions.

Well, that's not the real truth, the Europeans imposed sanctions, Russia did counter with stopping some gas flow as a result. Europe has decided to reduce oil supplies further by the end of the year, that is on them.

According to Ras's WW2 logic that's an act of war.

Traditionally I would say its not, but countries like Japan during WW2... used this as a reason to attack the U.S. You really don't need a reason to go to war. I would say stopping trade is really not an act of war, but I could see it being the case depending on the particulars. If that is the case, these sanctions including locking Russia out of global banking would be an act of war. Many countries are starting to view it that way i.e. economic war.

You are taking all this very personal, which is clouding your judgment and decision skills, imo.

 

[LSU-SIU]

US also doesn't recognize Maduro as leader of Venezuela...yet there he is.

And ole Joe is begging him for more oil. Matter of fact, they are dropping sanctions on certain oil shipments.

 

[volgr]

So why were these referendums only held while Russia was losing territory? You really believe that was a spontaneous decision?

The referendums have been known for quite some time. It is likely that is why Ukraine launched their counters when they did, to try and disrupt them from happening.

And werent you in the crowd asking why Ukraine needed weapons if they were winning? But now that Russia needs to tripple the troops they started with that means they are winning?

No. I wasn't. Russia sent about 30k originally, they are mobilizing up to 300k now. A large part of the fighting to this point has been done by militia with the assistance from Russian troops and weapons. I said Russia should mobilize months ago when their light forces were pushed out of Kharkiv the first time. It was becoming obvious the line of contact was too broad for such a small trained force and untrained militas to hold. Russia was embarrassed and exposed a couple of weeks ago in Kharkiv and it seems Putin is finally starting to wake up and realize he is fighting a NATO proxy war in Ukraine. Again, most Russians support this war and if Putin's seat was to get hot it would be from underreaction in regard to Ukraine not overreaction.

And if Ukraine has lost a 1/3, why does Russia need three times as many men? Seems like they could have a draw down with all these losses they have inflicted on Ukraine. Especially now that Ukraine has been drawn out of their defensive positions? A light breeze should knock Ukraine over now, surely.

Because Ukraine is drafting any men they can to fight. Some are being trained by NATO outside Ukraine and being brought back in. Also, see my response above which deals with this.

 

[LouderVol]

The vast majority of Russians are behind this operation. This is the Western Death Cult propaganda machine doing what it does best. Any protest, any pushback, etc will be magnified and amplified to western audiences who are too ignorant to know better. Russia lost the propaganda war months ago. No one holds a candle to western media.

They were. Until they started getting conscripted. There is a reason Putin kept this away from his largest metro areas for as long as possible. And it's not because this is popular. Quiet the opposite in fact.

 

[LouderVol]

It definitely was a western backed coup. The phone call between Victoria Nuland and the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine at the time proves it. Plus let's not forget about the meetings McCain and Biden had with the leader of the Svoboda Party. Wouldn't you like to know what they were discussing?

You all are either flat out lying about U.S. and the West's involvement in this conflict or you all truly live in a total alternate reality when it comes to this conflict.

A phone call between the state department and an ambassador proves a coup?

Holy cow are you reaching. There are dozens if not hundreds of coups going on everyday with that level of evidence.

There was a populist uprising, why shouldnt there be phone calls?