War in Ukraine

[hog88]

So what are you saying? The end result is still a loss. These politicians and generals are the same ones running the show right now.

I’m saying that in any conventional war we would fight against the Russians we would destroy them. Then after the fighting is over we would give it all back and rearm them.

 

[Electric Orange]

As seen in this thread..
Russia Reactivates Its Trolls and Bots Ahead of Tuesday's Midterms

"Most have little engagement but a recent post about the FBI received 43 responses and 11 replies, and was reposted 64 times."

My God! 64 times? This is an act of war! Have we tried sending more money to Ukraine?

 

[WBO]

That was tried with the Minsk 2 agreement, but after the Ukrainian government didn't keep their word, it's going to be hard for the Russians to trust them with any similar type of agreement going forward.

I'm going to say my prior post was not well thought out.

My only excuse is that I was trying to divert my attention from the result of UT/ UGA. My apologies for a substandard post.

 

[Velo Vol]

Stooges:

 

[Velo Vol]

 

[LouderVol]

Russians founding Odessa in 1794 means "Russians weren't living there in any meaningful numbers until after the Soviet Union was established" isn't quite true. And ironically, it was Ukraine that first came into existence in 1917 as a result of the Bolshevik Revolution and the establishment of the Soviet Union.

There was a town there before. Catherine just renamed it, and imported Russians.

Odesa

Demographic records are spotty but the Russian population grew from the founding, and became the largest minority in the 20's, replacing the Jews. There has been a lot of de-Ukrainization as well, with that population being forcibly removed over time, until the USSR. Now Jews are the majority, not very Russian of them, and Ukrainians are by far the biggest minority.

I am curious about the continuous litany of what counts as Russia all harkens back to removal of local population, and import of Russians. Is that considered legitimate for historical purposes? Because the de-Russianing of these areas would then also be legitimate and end any claim for Russia now.

 

[FLVOL_79]

 

[evillawyer]

Seeing lots of tweets about the Russians getting absolutely slaughtered in some ill-advised assaults on Pavlivka. Like hundreds killed.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Your troll game has gone to complete Moe. 5 seconds in Google and here is the first link

How Russian soldiers ran a 'cleansing' operation in Bucha, Ukraine

 

[Velo Vol]

 

[PKT_VOL]

Unbelievable given those are numbers inflicted from an adversary which does not have air superiority.

If it wasn't for social media, with a plethora of frontline videos, one would never believe this was possible.

 

[norrislakevol]

Seeing lots of tweets about the Russians getting absolutely slaughtered in some ill-advised assaults on Pavlivka. Like hundreds killed.

 

[LouderVol]

The people of Crimea and the Donbass would rather be a part of Russia. If they want to make that decision then it's up to them. Not you or me. Did you have this same problem with Kosovo's independence? Or Montenegro's independence?

Get the foreign troops out, and then let them decide.

You dont think it's a valid concern that the independence movement only began after they were occupied, and that the "referendum" went the occupiers way in a landslide after that independence movement didnt exist 10 years ago?

If you are willing to buy that narrative, no questions asked, you have absolutely no place questioning ANY of our elections.

The only reason you accept it is because it favors Russia.

 

[LouderVol]

They didn't intervene in the matter when it comes to Transnistria. Transnistria wanted to break free from the Moldova SSR in the late 1980s. This is a fact that your brain refuses to acknowledge. Perhaps you are either set in your ways or maybe your mind is incapable of processing new information.
Crimea and people in the Donbass don't want to be part of Ukraine. They have already voted on the matter. That should be up for them to decide and not some Armchair Lieutenant like yourself.

So why were the Soviets there in 1990 thru 1991, and then the Russians there in 1992 if it was not to intervene?

The transnistrians had lost and been pushed back, they held a lot more territory than they do now at the start of their civil war. It was only the Russian 14th Army that stopped Moldovan forces.

The Russians, Kazahstan 2022, and Soviets ,Hungary 1956, clearly have no problem jumping into other nations internal conflicts not going Soviet/Russian way. Why is it so hard for you to admit they were involved in the Transnistrian civil war?

You freak out about us having 500 troops in Syria even though the local Kurds have invited us. But you dont bat an eye at 2000 Soviets, or 1400 Russians, in Moldova after the local Transnistrians invited them.

What makes one legit, and the other not?

 

[LouderVol]

Yep. And some of these clowns are still living in 1985 and refuse to accept the fact that the Soviet Union no longer exists. They probably think Steve Grogan is still the Patriots QB as well.

Careful or you might invalidate your Banderas argument.

Nazi's, Nazis, Nazis.

Nazi Statues, Nazi road names, and less than 2% of local elected officials.

Good thing the rhetoric has changed to fighting Satan and not Hitler.

 

[LouderVol]

Once again. You are blatantly ignoring the origins of Transnistria's independence movement which began in the late 1980s due to the reasons I have explained already multiple times. That is a fact. Even some American universities recognize this fact.

If there are Russian troops in Transnistria its because they were asked and invited to be there. Therefore that does not make it an occupation like you claim.

Transnistria has their own government and have been governing themselves without the help of Moldova or the West. The fact they have a successful and functioning government free from western interference is probably what bothers you the most.

Why does it matter to you if they are free from Moldova and the West if they arent free of Russia?

Do you care about their independence, or just their dependence on Russia?

You can have any color you want, as long as its Black.
You can have any freedom you want, as long as its underneath the Russians.

 

[Velo Vol]

Master strategist

 

[LouderVol]

So basically, you are saying that Putin's "face‐saving" agreement would be the Minsk ceasefire agreements... wow. And the part about being a free trade zone between Russia and Europe would be what Yanukovich was wanting to do in 2013 but was told by the EU that he had to choose between Russia or The West and couldn't have both.

You guys are clowns.

It was very clearly not a free trade zone that Yanukovich pushed that got him ejected. He wanted the opposite. We have been over the text of the EU deal there was absolutely no provision that stated no trade with Russia, or limited it in any capacity.

Russia rejected it because it opened up trade with the west.

Also Putin very specifically argued against outside UN forces occupying the territory, he barely allowed observers in, and then only if they applied by his rules, which included right of denial.

 

[LouderVol]

That was tried with the Minsk 2 agreement, but after the Ukrainian government didn't keep their word, it's going to be hard for the Russians to trust them with any similar type of agreement going forward.

Russia didnt keep their word either.

Neither side upheld their end of that bargain. Not sure why you only blame Ukraine when Russia was the outsider.

 

[JuicyBrucey]

There was a town there before. Catherine just renamed it, and imported Russians.

Odesa

Demographic records are spotty but the Russian population grew from the founding, and became the largest minority in the 20's, replacing the Jews. There has been a lot of de-Ukrainization as well, with that population being forcibly removed over time, until the USSR. Now Jews are the majority, not very Russian of them, and Ukrainians are by far the biggest minority.

I am curious about the continuous litany of what counts as Russia all harkens back to removal of local population, and import of Russians. Is that considered legitimate for historical purposes? Because the de-Russianing of these areas would then also be legitimate and end any claim for Russia now.

Nobody's disputing that the ancient Greeks, the Golden Horde, the Ottomans and others hadn't lived on the land where Odessa was eventually built. Most people recognize that. But the city of Odessa was, in fact, built and founded by the Russians, the same way Knoxville was built by and founded by Americans regardless of the native peoples who lived there before us who we forcibly removed through genocide and other methods of ethnic cleansing.

This was Odessa in 1794:



This was Odessa in 1814:



There's no way Jews are the biggest minority in Odessa. Your information is very out of date as that hasn't been true for nearly a century. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Russians and Jews co-existed and the population of Jews even became larger than the population of Russians by 1939. WWII changed that, in no small part because of the Romanians and the Ukrainian nationalists who allied themselves with Nazi Germany. And the apples haven't fallen far from the tree.



Odessa was under Romanian control when WWII began and the Romanians took part in the Holocaust, ethnically cleansing Odessa of its Jewish population. 1941 Odessa massacre - Wikipedia

At the same time, in Lviv and throughout the region, Ukrainian nationalists were also carrying out the Holocaust against Jews. Lviv pogroms (1941) - Wikipedia

Even these days, Jews aren't truly accepted in Ukraine because of Ukrainian nationalists. Ukrainian marchers in Kiev chant ‘Jews out’ | The Times of Israel

The chart above clearly shows that the Russian percentage of Odessa's population peaked during the Russia Imperial era and actually fell during the Soviet era, and that's why I keep saying the claim that the USSR planted a lot of Russian squatters in the region is bogus. Russians were already there long before the USSR was even established.

 

[FLVOL_79]

Lol at the Rashism Flavor Aid® drinkers all up in here trying desperately to explain why Russia's illegal actions should be justified.

 

[tvolsfan]

Nobody's disputing that the ancient Greeks, the Golden Horde, the Ottomans and others hadn't lived on the land where Odessa was eventually built. Most people recognize that. But the city of Odessa was, in fact, built and founded by the Russians, the same way Knoxville was built by and founded by Americans regardless of the native peoples who lived there before us who we forcibly removed through genocide and other methods of ethnic cleansing.

This was Odessa in 1794:

View attachment 511621

This was Odessa in 1814:

View attachment 511623

There's no way Jews are the biggest minority in Odessa. Your information is very out of date as that hasn't been true for nearly a century. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Russians and Jews co-existed and the population of Jews even became larger than the population of Russians by 1939. WWII changed that, in no small part because of the Romanians and the Ukrainian nationalists who allied themselves with Nazi Germany. And the apples haven't fallen far from the tree.

View attachment 511619

Odessa was under Romanian control when WWII began and the Romanians took part in the Holocaust, ethnically cleansing Odessa of its Jewish population. 1941 Odessa massacre - Wikipedia

At the same time, in Lviv and throughout the region, Ukrainian nationalists were also carrying out the Holocaust against Jews. Lviv pogroms (1941) - Wikipedia

Even these days, Jews aren't truly accepted in Ukraine because of Ukrainian nationalists. Ukrainian marchers in Kiev chant ‘Jews out’ | The Times of Israel

The chart above clearly shows that the Russian percentage of Odessa's population peaked during the Russia Imperial era and actually fell during the Soviet era, and that's why I keep saying the claim that the USSR planted a lot of Russian squatters in the region is bogus. Russians were already there long before the USSR was even established.

So much of this is irrelevant and clearly just trying to convey sympathy for Russian irredentism.

The only thing that matters is Ukraine and all of its regions declared independence from Russia. Russia agreed. Years later, Putin invaded because Ukrainian sovereignty hurts his feelings.

 

[AM64]

There was a town there before. Catherine just renamed it, and imported Russians.

Odesa

Demographic records are spotty but the Russian population grew from the founding, and became the largest minority in the 20's, replacing the Jews. There has been a lot of de-Ukrainization as well, with that population being forcibly removed over time, until the USSR. Now Jews are the majority, not very Russian of them, and Ukrainians are by far the biggest minority.

I am curious about the continuous litany of what counts as Russia all harkens back to removal of local population, and import of Russians. Is that considered legitimate for historical purposes? Because the de-Russianing of these areas would then also be legitimate and end any claim for Russia now.

Russians are the kids that turn in some unique math ... and they never show the steps used or any of the "givens", "boundary conditions", "assumptions", or other work used to get to the answer. You can probably assume that any predominantly Russian city outside Russia proper involved addition by subtraction. "Pogrom" is a Russian word for minority subtraction, and Russians were carrying those out well before the Nazis ever existed.

Russians were always a backwards bunch of louts, but somehow they invented a lot of things over the years like cars, possibly airplanes, etc in spite of it all. After all it's just a new city, when you can simply ignore history - that there had been a city in the same place for decades. Russians are nothing if not revisionists - and flat out liars.

 

[DonjoVol]

Why does it matter to you if they are free from Moldova and the West if they arent free of Russia?

Do you care about their independence, or just their dependence on Russia?

You can have any color you want, as long as its Black.
You can have any freedom you want, as long as its underneath the Russians.

Let me get this straight. If the are U.S. forces are in another country they were invited. But if Russian forces were invited its an occupation? Lol. You really are a clown.

The people of Transnistria revolted and decided they did not want to be part of Moldova. They've been governing themselves for almost 30 years. Time to get over it and move on lol.

 

[LouderVol]

Ras has a point. In a war between the US and Russia it would make a difference in location - where the war takes place. Just like real estate, wars are all about location, location, location. You could knock out Russia's first line of defense and then find yourself swallowed by a logistics and insurgent nightmare. There's just too much land to take and hold ... much the same with the US and China; it's one factor that make the three of us different as far as world powers. Each has the land to absorb an impact and each has a lot of sustaining resources - hard to make a fatal blow facing that with conventional weapons.

My strategy would be to take them apart piece by piece. Moscow is a trap. Yeah it would take decades, and the death toll from conventional fighting would be higher, but I think that's the only way to make sure Russia stays down.

Release as many nation states as you can, so you arent occupying all the territory. And it also breaks down Russias ability to retake "Russia" if they are now dealing with Vulga Russia, Ural Russia, Karelia Russia, Tatar Russia. Make sure all their different "races" get their own country.

Even if you could take Russia in a month, there is no way to achieve any desired results in a short amount of time.