War in Ukraine

[LouderVol]

I remember one of these clowns stating Russia had no business being allies with their neighbors.

See, when Russia says "ally", they mean occupier.

Why didnt Russia side with the people in the Kazakh insurrection in Jan 2022?
Why didnt Russia side with the people in Belarus in 2020?

In both cases Russia sent in military forces to help the government violently put down resistance from the people.

Russia isnt some great defender of the people. They get involved whenever, wherever, and on whichever side favors Russia's continued hegemony over the old Soviet states.

 

[LouderVol]

And really, the Budapest Memorandum was violated in 2004 when the US staged color revolution in Ukraine. Also, the 2013 trade deal with the EU that Yanukovich rejected would have been a violation because it was an all or nothing deal that would have prohibited Ukraine from signing a trade deal with Russia if they signed the EU deal ("economic coercion").

You guys need to get off of this Budapest Memorandum nonsense. Its a dead end. Besides, Ukraine didn't have control of the Soviet nukes on their soil anymore than Turkiye has control of the US nukes there.

1. The EU trade deal was not all or nothing. Nothing in the language of the actual deal says otherwise. If you disagree provide the actual language of the deal that says otherwise.
2. By the same argument any trade deal would be a violation. Any trade deal is two sided and thus serves the interest of the both parties, it's why they both agree. No one is signing a completely one sided (Ukrainian in this case) trade deal. This absolutist stance would never be possible.
3. You still freak out about the US nukes in Turkey, so it seems valid to be concerned about nukes in Ukraine. Regardless of who controls them.
4. A color revolution in 2004? That would mean Yanukovych was our stooge by your reasoning. He was the guy after the guy in the color revolution. You assume Zelensky is our stooge, because he was the guy after the guy in the 2014 "coup". So once again you display your complete inconsistencies.
5. None of the text in the memorandum states anything about changes of government being a clause for violation. The treaty specifically mentions the borders of Ukraine.
6. If the 2004 change in government was a violation why didnt Putin step in then? Maybe it's because your boy Yanukovych was backed by a president who was recorded as ordering the kidnapping and disappearance of a journalist. Imagine Nuland's phone call but actually ordering the events instead of just talking about them. And Yanukovych was also caught bribing the election officials.

 

[LouderVol]

I wasn't asked to until now. But here you go... straight from the horses mouth (National Endowment for Democracy)

Revolution Redux: Can Ukrainian Society Be Re-Mobilized in Defense of Democracy - NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR DEMOCRACY

Just like the NGOs in Russia that got Puton elected in 1999 when we gave the 11 billion? Or is that different just because it makes you look silly?

 

[DonjoVol]

See, when Russia says "ally", they mean occupier.

Why didnt Russia side with the people in the Kazakh insurrection in Jan 2022?
Why didnt Russia side with the people in Belarus in 2020?

In both cases Russia sent in military forces to help the government violently put down resistance from the people.

Russia isnt some great defender of the people. They get involved whenever, wherever, and on whichever side favors Russia's continued hegemony over the old Soviet states.

Why didn't the U.S. government side with the peaceful truckers convoy in Canada? I mean they should have sided with the people right? Why was the Biden administration villianizing people who chose not to get the covid vaccine? Were you also this upset when Biden gave his Hitler- like speech against what he said were the "Maga" Republicans?

The U.S. isn't some great defender of people like you think. They often are the aggressor and antagonize other countries into conflicts. And create chaos in counties like Iraq the second time around.

 

[LouderVol]

Kyiv wasn't just firing on soldiers, they were (and still are) targeting civilians.

They were doing an incredibly crappy job.

8 years and AT most 14,000 dead.
Meanwhile, 1 year into this not war and we have already seen more than 200k civilian casaulties (wounded and dead), havent seen deaths only.

How are we supposed to feel bad about 14k while you ignore 200k?

 

[LouderVol]

Russia was only following the Serbia model set by the US/UK in 1999.

You mean the Transnitrian model set by Russia in early 1990s?

 

[DonjoVol]

You mean the Transnitrian model set by Russia in early 1990s?

We've gone over this before. Transnistria wanted to break away from Moldova in the late 80s. Russia had nothing to do with it. Plus why are you upset that the people of Transnistria wanted their independence? I thought you liked it when people choose to revolt on their own?

 

[LouderVol]

Not only is it a smoking gun about 2004, but what they would be doing leading up the the winter of 2013/2014.


That wasn't the original question you asked me. You are moving the goalposts. Your original statement was:



With regards to this new question/statement, we are going to be going back and forth with news and commentaries from my side and your side about alleged corruption in the voting. But with regards to your original statement, you cannot refute what I posted coming directly from the NED.

An article is a smoking gun? I hope you never have to prove anything in court, or to anyone with actual critical thinking abilities.

You know those NGOs had been in place BEFORE the 2004 election right?

 

[LouderVol]

I actually agree with you on this. It is a false equivalence. At least Russia intervened on a crisis on their own border with people that identified as Russian people.

The US and UK intervening in Serbia is obviously a different story.

Here we go again with this bs about Putin being King of the Russian people and not president of the Russian Federation. Globalism in action right here in Ras's post.

 

[LouderVol]

These guys and gals will go to whatever lengths they can to defend this proxy war. And now some of them want a war between China and Afghanistan.

Another bad argument. I havent seen anyone wanting China and Afghanistan to be in a war.

You guys love jumping to conclusions. Just pointing out the inevitability of it. It goes back to Alexander the Great at the least. Outsiders will try to occupy the area, and the locals will fight them. Same song and dance, just one of the partners is different.

 

[LouderVol]

So let me get this straight. Russia has supposedly lost over 100K troops, running out of missiles, their equipment being destroyed left and right, military is incompetent, Ukrainians are whooping their butt all over the battlefield and we still need to send billions of dollars to Ukraine. Just want to make sure I'm understanding the Ukrainiac logic in this thread.

Lol, it's the same thing we have been saying from day one, and you still dont understand a basic function of war.

War costs money, which includes equipment. It costs money whether you are winning or losing. Fighting on your own territory, or somewhere else.

 

[LouderVol]

Those "western societies" are wasting time, money, and equipment supporting this proxy war. It's between Russia and Ukraine. Plus according to you and some others in this thread is that Russia's military is already incompetent. Therefore it's only common sense to let Ukraine handle them on their own Proctor.

Let's fix the problems we have here in the U.S. first before sending another penny to Ukraine.

No it was an internal Ukrainian matter. That Russia got involved with. Which opened the door for everyone else.

 

[tvolsfan]

Why didn't the U.S. government side with the peaceful truckers convoy in Canada? I mean they should have sided with the people right?

Taking false equivalency to a whole new level.

 

[NorthDallas40]

No it was an internal Ukrainian matter. That Russia got involved with. Which opened the door for everyone else.

Sorry louder you’re gonna have to wade thru three pages of me dragging Curly around by the nose not far after that post because I was bored and laid up yesterday. I gotta get my fun somehow

 

[rekinhavoc]

Putin's Next Nightmare: Challenger 2 Tanks Will Now Fight Russia in Ukraine

 

[tvolsfan]

No, they were not fighting to grab land outside of liberating Donbas. Again, if Russia was hellbent on expanding territory, they had the perfect opportunity 6 weeks earlier in Kazakhstan.

They were too busy preparing for the upcoming invasion that you didn’t think was going to happen.

 

[DonjoVol]

Taking false equivalency to a whole new level.

No it's not. He has said multiple times that if people have an issue they should revolt or stand up to their government on their own. So, based on his logic, in the case of the truckers convoy it would only make sense that the Canadian government and our government sided with the people.

 

[DonjoVol]

Sorry louder you’re gonna have to wade thru three pages of me dragging Curly around by the nose not far after that post because I was bored and laid up yesterday. I gotta get my fun somehow

Lol. You didn't do anything other than prove your stupidity on the issue. Plus you didn't even read the whole paper.

 

[LouderVol]

Kosovo being annexed into the NATO/EU collective.

Too bad Kosovo isnt part of NATO. They are looking to increase their non membership role in 2023, but still arent a member. They would be joining the same category that Russia is in.
Kosovo aims to join NATO's Partnership for Peace program in 2023

Similarly, Kosovo didnt even ask to join the EU until December of 2022, and isnt scheduled to join until 2025 at the earliest.
The European Union and Kosovo | EEAS Website

Basic facts keep getting in the way of your conspiracies.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Lol. You didn't do anything other than prove your stupidity on the issue. Plus you didn't even read the whole paper.

LMAO you were so deep in the weeds you had no idea what the initial point was and had to go back and read MG’s posts and you STILL got it wrong! All I did was wind you up and watch you flail for fun. Fk’in hilarious.

I grow tired of your dumbassery. Run along now Curly

 

[Rocky_Top_Vol13]

 

[DonjoVol]

LMAO you were so deep in the weeds you had no idea what the initial point was and had to go back and read MG’s posts and you STILL got it wrong! All I did was wind you up and watch you flail for fun. Fk’in hilarious.

I grow tired of your dumbassery. Run along now Curly

View attachment 531429

Lol. That's not what happened at all Proctor. I simply disagreed with the point you and him were trying to make about shock and awe originating in Desert Storm. Something you both claimed and you both were proven wrong. The author himself even used events from the past as an example of shock and awe. The term also didn't become popular until around 2003. I never said the term didn't exist before that. And finally you claimed the book was a book about Desert Storm. Once again you were wrong.

Of course you managed to put your stupidity and immaturity on full display. Congrats.

 

[tvolsfan]

No it's not. He has said multiple times that if people have an issue they should revolt or stand up to their government on their own. So, based on his logic, in the case of the truckers convoy it would only make sense that the Canadian government and our government sided with the people.

You compares Russian military intervention to our doing nothing in Canada. So yes, false equivalency.

 

[Johncarter53]

 

[LouderVol]

but I also realize that Ukraine has been killing and attacking civilians in Donbass since 2014.

So has Russia. But I dont see you complaining about them.