War in Ukraine

[VolInNW]

As I understand it the horses will double as sex partners and can be eaten if necessary.

russians would only screw horses if they run out of baby lambs. After all, horses can kick back, and nothing turns on a russian soldier more than helplessness.

 

[lukeneyland]

The amazing part is how some people boil down support of Ukraine into simple anti-Russian fantasy (left over reminiscence of the Cold War), support of corrupt leaders (apparently only corrupt people can be in Ukrainian government), dupes (or major stockholders) of the military industrial complex, support of people who ungraciously told their neighbor that they weren't willing to give them part of their land, or warmongers who want to free restrained Nazis rather than people who actually admire the citizens of an invaded country willing to fight for their freedom. Apparently a will to fight for freedom is a completely novel and unexplained phenomenon that has to be restrained because it could be too dangerous a concept to let loose on the world.

I also think it’s amazing how some people will equate my unease about our involvement in this war ( because I believe it threatens our long term security ) with being a supporter of Russia. I’ve been wrong about so much in regards to this war, but I’m still unable to really grasp what the United States can realistically aim to achieve. What does a realistic American/Ukrainian “win” look like?

 

[VolInNW]

I also think it’s amazing how some people will equate my unease about our involvement in this war ( because I believe it threatens our long term security ) with being a supporter of Russia. I’ve been wrong about so much in regards to this war, but I’m still unable to really grasp what the United States can realistically aim to achieve. What does a realistic American/Ukrainian “win” look like?

An enemy with a wrecked economy, destroyed world standing, and a gutted military.

I'd call that a win.

 

[lukeneyland]

An enemy with a wrecked economy, destroyed world standing, and a gutted military.

I'd call that a win.

That scenario in 1918 gave us Hitler. In 1917
that scenario gave us the USSR.

 

[VolInNW]

That scenario in 1918 gave us Hitler. In 1917
that scenario gave us the USSR.

We also screwed up the 1989 endgame and ended up with putin. Part of it lies in the russian malaise and the tendency to despotism in that culture.

Still, a weakened russia is better for us.

 

[AM64]

I also think it’s amazing how some people will equate my unease about our involvement in this war ( because I believe it threatens our long term security ) with being a supporter of Russia. I’ve been wrong about so much in regards to this war, but I’m still unable to really grasp what the United States can realistically aim to achieve. What does a realistic American/Ukrainian “win” look like?

Maybe it's a generational thing or just a belief that some of us have that others don't, but I've always believed that supporting an underdog, a victim, or the oppressed makes you better for having done so. I've never felt that we should support another country in Ukraine's position for profit or for gain; it's the right and wrong of things that matter. Ukraine was wronged; that we support them is right.

WW2 was a result of the Versailles Treaty imposed on Germany at the end of WW1 - vengeful (some might argue rightful) retribution by other Europeans. At the conclusion of WW2 we treated our former enemies, specifically Germany and Japan, far differently than victors had done in the past. There was a cost involved, but there's been a lot of earned peace and friendship in return.

 

[AM64]

That scenario in 1918 gave us Hitler. In 1917
that scenario gave us the USSR.

What happened to Germany went well beyond the ending conditions that Germany faced. Our European allies decided that kicking former enemy when it was down was a great move; it wasn't. Hitler got on the playing field for railing not against the ending conditions but against the punitive measures still being felt in Germany.

I don't propose helping Russia at the end of this conflict; just leave them alone, and let them see if they can sort it out. Considering Russia's past, I feel they'll screw up their recovery either with or without help. Going from serfdom to communism to collapse isn't exactly nation building or developing any kind of leadership.

 

[lukeneyland]

We also screwed up the 1989 endgame and ended up with putin. Part of it lies in the russian malaise and the tendency to despotism in that culture.

Still, a weakened russia is better for us.

A weakened Russia would be wonderful, but I’m not sure that is a long term possibility. I think it is probable that future generations of Russians will learn from this and become more dangerous as a result. What’s more scary is the possibility of a regime collapse, what happens if the country becomes fractured and someone worse than Putin gets ahold of Nukes.

 

[lukeneyland]

Maybe it's a generational thing or just a belief that some of us have that others don't, but I've always believed that supporting an underdog, a victim, or the oppressed makes you better for having done so. I've never felt that we should support another country in Ukraine's position for profit or for gain; it's the right and wrong of things that matter. Ukraine was wronged; that we support them is right.

WW2 was a result of the Versailles Treaty imposed on Germany at the end of WW1 - vengeful (some might argue rightful) retribution by other Europeans. At the conclusion of WW2 we treated our former enemies, specifically Germany and Japan, far differently than victors had done in the past. There was a cost involved, but there's been a lot of earned peace and friendship in return.

It might be generational but I do understand where you are coming from. A question I ask myself that sort of governs how I view this war, is that I ask myself “ Am I personally willing to pick up a rifle and go die for Ukraine?” The answer as you’d expect is a resounding NO. Since it is my view that our involvement in this conflict is bringing us dangerously close to an armed confrontation with Russia (maybe not now but in the coming decades), I am therefore extremely hesitant to support any American involvement in Ukraine. I just can’t support something that I think will eventually cost our country tens of thousands of lives. In my opinion it is the chief responsibility of American foreign policy to put the well being of its own citizens above all else. I sympathize with Ukraine in some ways they remind me of the South in the Civil War or the Scots fighting against their English oppressors. But I feel the most responsible thing to do is to set aside those sympathies for the greater good of our own country

 

[EasternVol]

The amazing part is how some people boil down support of Ukraine into simple anti-Russian fantasy (left over reminiscence of the Cold War), support of corrupt leaders (apparently only corrupt people can be in Ukrainian government), dupes (or major stockholders) of the military industrial complex, support of people who ungraciously told their neighbor that they weren't willing to give them part of their land, or warmongers who want to free restrained Nazis rather than people who actually admire the citizens of an invaded country willing to fight for their freedom. Apparently a will to fight for freedom is a completely novel and unexplained phenomenon that has to be restrained because it could be too dangerous a concept to let loose on the world.

Very valid. Much of that is true elsewhere too, like the ME.

 

[EasternVol]

An enemy with a wrecked economy, destroyed world standing, and a gutted military.

I'd call that a win.

Even with Ukraine integrated into Russia?

 

[lukeneyland]

That was the peace deal we gave Mexico. That was the deal Turkiye gave Cypress. That was the deal the Israelis gave the Syrians and Palestinians.

Mexico was idiotic enough to not accept their ass beating by Texas and tried their hand at round two against the entire country. They brought it on themselves I don’t really see how there’s much of a parallel with Ukraine

 

[Velo Vol]

 

[WilcoVolsFan]

This thread is beyond sad. Ad hominem attacks from losers like @NorthDallas40. @BeardedVol, @Hunerwadel, @MontyPython, @Septic, @volfanhill slobbering over Zelenskys sack. It’s pathetic. You people are so gullible it’s not even funny. Every pro Ukraine tweet is somehow legit and not propaganda. Every pro Russia tweet is somehow illegitimate and propaganda. That’s your line of thinking. . Keep up the dumb.

You're supporting the totalitarian regime that arrests journalists and murders opposition leaders while invading another sovereign country by recruiting criminals and committing war crimes of mass rape and kidnapping children.

Congrats on being a total POS.

 

[VolinWayne]

Didn't know where else to put this. Why has this never really been discussed by the media?

 

[volgr]

Well, simple simon, if the russian military would use missles on military targets instead of just lobbing them into population centers, they might last longer.
But who are we kidding. The russian military culture and dogma relies on wanton murder of noncombatants. After all, when russians fight organized militaries, or other organized forces, they get their asses kicked.

Congrats, you can regurgitate western propaganda....now put your mask on and take the vax like a good boy.

 

[volgr]

You're supporting the totalitarian regime that arrests journalists and murders opposition leaders while invading another sovereign country by recruiting criminals and committing war crimes of mass rape and kidnapping children.

Congrats on being a total POS.

You're talking about Ukraine and Cokehead Zelensky...right??

 

[volgr]

I also think it’s amazing how some people will equate my unease about our involvement in this war ( because I believe it threatens our long term security ) with being a supporter of Russia. I’ve been wrong about so much in regards to this war, but I’m still unable to really grasp what the United States can realistically aim to achieve. What does a realistic American/Ukrainian “win” look like?

Were you not around in 2001? You are either with us or you are with the terrorists. These idiots supporting this war eat those slogans up. They get off on death and destruction. They are in a death cult.

 

[volgr]

An enemy with a wrecked economy, destroyed world standing, and a gutted military.

I'd call that a win.

Russia will come out of this stronger than ever, both militarily and financially. Another embarrassing humiliating loss for the US of Gay

 

[AM64]

It might be generational but I do understand where you are coming from. A question I ask myself that sort of governs how I view this war, is that I ask myself “ Am I personally willing to pick up a rifle and go die for Ukraine?” The answer as you’d expect is a resounding NO. Since it is my view that our involvement in this conflict is bringing us dangerously close to an armed confrontation with Russia (maybe not now but in the coming decades), I am therefore extremely hesitant to support any American involvement in Ukraine. I just can’t support something that I think will eventually cost our country tens of thousands of lives. In my opinion it is the chief responsibility of American foreign policy to put the well being of its own citizens above all else. I sympathize with Ukraine in some ways they remind me of the South in the Civil War or the Scots fighting against their English oppressors. But I feel the most responsible thing to do is to set aside those sympathies for the greater good of our own country

I'm not seeing the risk of US boots on the ground in Ukraine; maybe that's generational or at least being of the age to have lived through the entire Cold War. I suppose there's the risk - highly dependent on US leadership, but we faced off with Russia/Soviets for a good deal of my life without ever fighting them directly. Maybe that perspective skews things for those of us who lived it, and we believe the sky didn't fall then and it won't fall now. We indirectly faced Soviet support in Korea, Vietnam, and other places just as they are facing our support with respect to Ukraine. I just don't see it getting out of control this time either; in fact, this time feels far less risky.

 

[AM64]

Great demonstration of just how vulnerable current tanks are from above. There is so much to be learned from Ukraine - how some new technology renders a lot of established hardware basically obsolete. It's obvious that even small commercial drones can be made into tank killers, and the cost of a drone and a small explosive is a fraction of what a tank and crew cost. I'd be putting a lot of research funding into electronic countermeasures to combat drones - almost like fogging an area to kill mosquitoes because the mosquitoes are carrying a deadly, rabid strain of malaria.

 

[volfanhill]

Looks like we got ourselves a damn Nazi sympathizer right here. Russia should do what's right and invade Japan.

Hundreds of locals in war-torn Ukraine city eat free daily thanks to elderly Japanese man's cafe

 

[WilcoVolsFan]

You're talking about Ukraine and Cokehead Zelensky...right??

I’m talking about a sovereign nation whose land has been invaded by an Army of criminals at the behest of a dictator that murders his rivals. I know dimwit QAnon suckers like you, what Lenin called his useful idiots, love the commies now, but us real Patriots still believe in freedom.

 

[VolInNW]

Congrats, you can regurgitate western propaganda....now put your mask on and take the vax like a good boy.

Sadly, I suspect the self-directed irony of your post blew by you.

 

[VolInNW]

Wait......you played the armless/legless knight in Holy Grail, didnt you??