War in Ukraine

[Septic]

My thought is that Ukraine is losing way more than what is being reported. I don't know long Ukraine can defend but at some point, rather sooner or later, America needs to start pushing for peace or else Ukraine will not have many young men left.

LOL, your altruism is noted.

The peace you so longingly wish for could be easily attained by Russia leaving the sovereign land its invaded.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

 

[NorthDallas40]

what do you want them to do? Ukraine keep fighting and losing more men? If we're going to keep giving them money to fight, let's do it right and put boots on the ground. Can you not see where this going?

The point is that’s Ukraine’s decision. The US nor any other western country has no business interjecting and trying to force peace if Ukraine wants to continue to fight to regain their territory.

 

[Septic]

what do you want them to do? Ukraine keep fighting and losing more men? If we're going to keep giving them money to fight, let's do it right and put boots on the ground. Can you not see where this going?

It's Ukraine's land you dolt. As long as they wish to fight for their land against a psychotic aggressor, we should support them.

 

[scooty_vol]

why would they push for peace?

assume for a second that the US is backing Ukraine because Ukraine was invaded. Under that logic why would the US push for a peace that saw Ukraine lose the land the US is supporting them for?

There is absolutely nothing keeping Ukraine fighting any longer than Ukraine wants to.

I could be wrong but I feel Ukraine is going to lose whether America is backing them or not. It seems Ukraine is going to lose land either way.

 

[scooty_vol]

It's Ukraine's land you dolt. As long as they wish to fight for their land against a psychotic aggressor, we should support them.

Ah yes, the name calling. my point is Ukraine is going to lose that land either way. If we're going to give all of this money, then we might as well go all in put soldiers in Ukraine. As bad as you guys say the Russian military is, it should be a walk-in-the-park.

 

[scooty_vol]

The point is that’s Ukraine’s decision. The US nor any other western country has no business interjecting and trying to force peace if Ukraine wants to continue to fight to regain their territory.

But you're good with sending billions over there?

 

[Septic]

I understand dolt, my point is Ukraine is going to lose that land either way. If we're going to give all of this money, then we might as well go all in put soldiers in Ukraine. As bad as you guys say the Russian military is, it should be a walk-in-the-park.

You're question begging.

You've started with an answer that is very much not been decided. Given your history and your ability to use rational or reasoned thought, you won't understand why your premise is flawed from the outset.

Moving forward, whenever you think you have a "point" - sleep on it and consider not posting. You'll save yourself from loads of embarrassment.

 

[NorthDallas40]

But you're good with sending billions over there?

I’m good with adhering to our obligations. And we gave them a commitment. So if you don’t want the US obligated to assist in situations like this then protest to your Congressmen to not enter badly written open ended agreements.

However I will say I’m pretty damn happy to see US hardware employed to do exactly what it was designed to do, kill invading Russians, without risking the life of a single US service member. Win win

 

[Septic]

I’m good with adhering to our obligations. And we gave them a commitment. So if you don’t want the US obligated to assist in situations like this this protest to your Congressmen to not enter badly written open ended agreements.

However I will say I’m pretty damn happy to see US hardware employed to do exactly what it was designed to do, kill invading Russians, without risking the life of a single US service member. Win win

Absolutley.

 

[LouderVol]

I could be wrong but I feel Ukraine is going to lose whether America is backing them or not. It seems Ukraine is going to lose land either way.

thats fair. thats what I believe too. Doesn't mean Ukraine should just roll over.

I always like comparing things when I can. War can be like football, see Neyland. Just because one side should/could/will lose in the end doesn't mean that they should just roll over and take it. upsets happen in both.

I think at this point its pretty clear Ukraine isn't going to just collapse like Russia, and many in the west, thought they would. So its not like its a case that Michigan is up 30 points going into the fourth, in this case Appalachian State is still within striking distance. both sides have their starters in, neither side is holding back any punches. at some point both teams have to decide if it worth an injury to a starter to keep them in the game. No one outside of those two teams get to make that decision for either team.

I don't know if this will be that 2007 Michigan vs App State game, but at this point I don't think you can call this fight over.

 

[tvolsfan]

Got to love all the people “feeling” that Ukraine is actually doing way worse than all available data would suggest and than a quick glance at the progress of the war would indicate.

 

[scooty_vol]

You're question begging.

You've started with an answer that is very much not been decided. Given your history and your ability to use rational or reasoned thought, you won't understand why your premise is flawed from the outset.

Moving forward, whenever you think you have a "point" - sleep on it and consider not posting. You'll save yourself from loads of embarrassment.

Fact is, Ukraine is not going to win, no matter how any twitter videos you post about some Russian tank being destroyed. If Ukraine wants to defend themselves that fine and understandable but ultimately they'll lose and the tens of billions dollars we spent will be wasted. I hope Ukraine can defend themselves and drive Russia back but I don't think it will happen.

 

[scooty_vol]

thats fair. thats what I believe too. Doesn't mean Ukraine should just roll over.

I always like comparing things when I can. War can be like football, see Neyland. Just because one side should/could/will lose in the end doesn't mean that they should just roll over and take it. upsets happen in both.

I think at this point its pretty clear Ukraine isn't going to just collapse like Russia, and many in the west, thought they would. So its not like its a case that Michigan is up 30 points going into the fourth, in this case Appalachian State is still within striking distance. both sides have their starters in, neither side is holding back any punches. at some point both teams have to decide if it worth an injury to a starter to keep them in the game. No one outside of those two teams get to make that decision for either team.

I don't know if this will be that 2007 Michigan vs App State game, but at this point I don't think you can call this fight over.

I don't think the fight is over yet but how many Ukrainian soldiers are going to die and still lose their country. If America is going to invest this much and more, then let's put soldiers on the ground and finish it. The majority of nations would support us.

If there is a war that could be won with American soldiers then this would be the war.

 

[scooty_vol]

I’m good with adhering to our obligations. And we gave them a commitment. So if you don’t want the US obligated to assist in situations like this then protest to your Congressmen to not enter badly written open ended agreements.

However I will say I’m pretty damn happy to see US hardware employed to do exactly what it was designed to do, kill invading Russians, without risking the life of a single US service member. Win win

It's definitely a win for the military industry. I do agree the hardware we send over is 2nd to none, hopefully they'll be Ukraine soldiers left to use it

Are we going to continue to commit money until the last remaining Ukraine soldier is dead?

 

[turbovol]

I think the situation for Russia in Ukraine's Donbas is going to slowly deteriorate as the Ukrainian army brings more and more
superior Western weaponry--fighting vehicles, tanks, rockets, drones, engineering materiel, F16s, etc.--into the fight. We're seeing longer-range
missiles being used now to destroy Russian command-and-control facilities, fuel depots, communications equipment far behind Russian lines. Also, the West continues to ratchet up sanctions, and there is ongoing sabotage activity. And now we hear that a Free Russian Legion--an anti-Putin militia of some kind--is operating in and around Belgorod, just inside the Russian border. It won't be easy--Russia's military is all about quantity not quality--but in the end I'm confident that a very capable and determined Ukrainian force is going to drive out the terrorists.

 

[NorthDallas40]

It's definitely a win for the military industry. I do agree the hardware we send over is 2nd to none, hopefully they'll be Ukraine soldiers left to use it

Are we going to continue to commit money until the last remaining Ukraine soldier is dead?

With regard to your loaded question we shouldn’t enter agreements we have no intention of honoring. We entered a really poorly executed agreement in 1994 because we wanted Ukraine to give up their nukes. That’s our own damn fault. This is the same answer I gave you in the prior post when you asked the same question in another form.

 

[Hunerwadel]

Fact is, Ukraine is not going to win, no matter how any twitter videos you post about some Russian tank being destroyed. If Ukraine wants to defend themselves that fine and understandable but ultimately they'll lose and the tens of billions dollars we spent will be wasted. I hope Ukraine can defend themselves and drive Russia back but I don't think it will happen.[/QUOTE.

 

[scooty_vol]

With regard to your loaded question we shouldn’t enter agreements we have no intention of honoring. We entered a really poorly executed agreement in 1994 because we wanted Ukraine to give up their nukes. That’s our own damn fault. This is the same answer I gave you in the prior post when you asked the same question in another form.

I'm not saying we shouldn't honor our agreements. Im asking when is enough enough, I'm looking at 1, 2 years from now. How much more money are we going to give? I wasn't asking a loaded question

 

[NorthDallas40]

I'm not saying we shouldn't honor our agreements. Im asking when is enough enough, I'm looking at 1, 2 years from now. How much more money are we going to give? I wasn't asking a loaded question

You are absolutely crawfishing around saying we shouldn’t honor our agreements

 

[LouderVol]

I don't think the fight is over yet but how many Ukrainian soldiers are going to die and still lose their country. If America is going to invest this much and more, then let's put soldiers on the ground and finish it. The majority of nations would support us.

If there is a war that could be won with American soldiers then this would be the war.

I think pretty much everyone, except for you and Ras, see a huge difference between wasting money and wasting lives. Even if its the difference in Ukrainian victory vs losing.

Our country has absolutely no problem wasting money. This war, pork spending, welfare, whatever, we spend spend spend.
Our country has an absolute aversion to losing lives. Its why our space race ended, and you saw people freaking out over Covid.

There is no stomach for a loss of life, the money is seen as fake/meaningless anyway so its not a real loss like lives would be.

again, how many people, because civilians are dying too, Ukraine is comfortable losing is completely up to them. We don't get to decide, no matter what Ras argues.

 

[scooty_vol]

I think the situation for Russia in Ukraine's Donbas is going to slowly deteriorate as the Ukrainian army brings more and more
superior Western weaponry--fighting vehicles, tanks, rockets, drones, engineering materiel, F16s, etc.--into the fight. We're seeing longer-range
missiles being used now to destroy Russian command-and-control facilities, fuel depots, communications equipment far behind Russian lines. Also, the West continues to ratchet up sanctions, and there is ongoing sabotage activity. And now we hear that a Free Russian Legion--an anti-Putin militia of some kind--is operating in and around Belgorod, just inside the Russian border. It won't be easy--Russia's military is all about quantity not quality--but in the end I'm confident that a very capable and determined Ukrainian force is going to drive out the terrorists.

Maybe Ukraine can cause enough problems that the Russian people will revolt against putin. The f16 could be huge for Ukraine but they'll need a bunch of them

 

[Velo Vol]

Our country has an absolute aversion to losing lives. Its why our space race ended, and you saw people freaking out over Covid.

I agree about the aversion to losing life, but is this part true?

1) It's not really a race any more.

2) Lack of novelty.

3) Expensive.

 

[scooty_vol]

You are absolutely crawfishing around saying we shouldn’t honor our agreements

I'm not saying, I don't think we should have agreed to spend all that money but we have so we need to honor it. I'm looking at a year or 2 down the road. Do we want to invest 100, 200 billion?

 

[NorthDallas40]

I'm not saying, I don't think we should have agreed to spend all that money but we have so we need to honor it. I'm looking at a year or 2 down the road. Do we want to invest 100, 200 billion?

Your second sentence directly contradicts with your first sentence. Perhaps you should do some introspection and figure out what you really believe?

 

[scooty_vol]

I think pretty much everyone, except for you and Ras, see a huge difference between wasting money and wasting lives. Even if its the difference in Ukrainian victory vs losing.

Our country has absolutely no problem wasting money. This war, pork spending, welfare, whatever, we spend spend spend.
Our country has an absolute aversion to losing lives. Its why our space race ended, and you saw people freaking out over Covid.

There is no stomach for a loss of life, the money is seen as fake/meaningless anyway so its not a real loss like lives would be.

again, how many people, because civilians are dying too, Ukraine is comfortable losing is completely up to them. We don't get to decide, no matter what Ras argues.

I agree, however we are losing both. (Though not US lives but Ukrainian lives) we could promise 100 billion in funds bit I don't think it will help.