War in Ukraine

#65,654
#65,654
Burhead said:
For Wagner yeah. The Russian army is using Asians, Chechens, and poor Russians who can't afford to bribe conscription officers. Don't act like the Russians are not grabbing bodies either Ras.
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Russia is a multi-ethnic country so of course it is going to be a mix of people in there. WTF are you talking about? And the US military pulls from the poor and lower middle class also. So again, what is your point?
 
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#65,656
#65,656
Rasputin_Vol said:
Russia is a multi-ethnic country so of course it is going to be a mix of people in there. WYF are you talking about? And the US military pulls from the poor and lower middle class also. So again, what is your point?
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So why crap on Ukraine for doing the same thing?

Rasputin_Vol said:
???
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Meant Russia Today not sure why I thought it was Russian Times too early in the morning I guess.
 
#65,657
#65,657
Burhead said:
For Wagner yeah. The Russian army is using Asians, Chechens, and poor Russians who can't afford to bribe conscription officers. Don't act like the Russians are not grabbing bodies either Ras.
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The Russians are not having to pull people off the streets. Nor are they losing men at an industrial level compared to the Kyiv regime. In Artemovsk, the kill ratios were likely 3:1 in Russia's favor because of the nature of the street fighting. But overall, you and I both know the kill ratio since 02/24/2022 is in the 10:1 or more favoring the Russians.
 
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#65,658
#65,658
Rasputin_Vol said:
The Russians are not having to pull people off the streets. Nor are they losing men at an industrial level compared to the Kyiv regime. In Artemovsk, the kill ratios were likely 3:1 in Russias favor because of the nature of the street fighting. But overall, you and I both know the kill ratio since 02/24/2022 is in the 10:1 or more favoring the Russians.
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No we don't agree on that. I'm not saying the Ukrainians are not suffering big losses but not 10:1 odds.
 
#65,659
#65,659
Burhead said:
So why crap on Ukraine for doing the same thing?
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It isn't the same. The Russians are putting either trained military or trained mercenaries in the battle. The Kyiv regime is pulling IT programmers, grandads, the crippled and women to the frontlines.


Burhead said:
Meant Russia Today not sure why I thought it was Russian Times too early in the morning I guess.
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OK, so? Do you shoot the messenger or do you attack the argument? If RT is spitting out lies, do you counter their arguments or do you just resort to juvenile level mean girl antics?
 
#65,661
#65,661
Rasputin_Vol said:
It isn't the same. The Russians are putting either trained military or trained mercenaries in the battle. The Kyiv regime is pulling IT programmers, grandads, the crippled and women to the frontlines.



OK, so? Do you shoot the messenger or do you attack the argument? If RT is spitting out lies, do you counter their arguments or do you just resort to juvenile level mean girl antics?
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Why debate? You will not accept any theory that goes against the notion that Russia was being threatened by Ukraine/NATO and that they are the innocent party in all of this.
 
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#65,662
#65,662
Burhead said:
No we don't agree on that. I'm not saying the Ukrainians are not suffering big losses but not 10:1 odds.
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Also, you admit the heavy losses, yet you still want this to continue. At what point do you come to the realization that victory will not come on your terms and is not possible (outside of nukes) and come to the negotiating table? Or, is your philosophy that we have to destroy Ukraine in order to save it ("to the last drop of Ukrainian blood")?
 
#65,663
#65,663
Rasputin_Vol said:
Also, you admit the heavy losses, yet you still want this to continue. At what point do you come to the realization that victory will not come on your terms and is not possible (outside of nukes) and come to the negotiating table? Or, is your philosophy that we have to destroy Ukraine in order to save it ("to the last drop of Ukrainian blood")?
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I've already laid out my peace plan that gives both sides something to take home and claim as a win.
 
#65,664
#65,664
Burhead said:
Why debate? You will not accept any theory that goes against the notion that Russia was being threatened by Ukraine/NATO and that they are the innocent party in all of this.
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Don't take my word for it. You still have people a few days ago talking about bringing Ukraine into NATO. Putin told you all in 2007 in Munich, but you ignored the security concerns they had. And a year later, you put a battery in Sakaashvili's back and activated Georgia. Then you regime changed Ukraine in 2014. Had a military alliance of Russia or China intended to add Mexico, Cuba, Nicaragua or Venezuela to their fold, how would the US react? If China or Russia had regime changed Mexico or Cuba, how would the US react?

You guys are intellectually dishonest.
 
#65,666
#65,666
Rasputin_Vol said:
What is your peace plan?
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1. Ukraine cedes control over Crimea to Russia
2. Russia recognizes Ukrainian control over the entire Donbas
3. Ukraine grants a form of autonomy to the east
4. Any former DNR/LNR official is granted amnesty but agrees not to take up arms against Kyiv again (anyone not wishing to stay in Ukraine is free to go to Russia)
5. Russia pays for reconstruction of war damages
6. A DMZ/security barrier is created along the Russian/Ukrainian and Belarusian/Ukrainian borders patrolled by international peacekeepers
7. Russia turns over any commander/soldier involved in war crimes (Bucha, etc) to the Hague.
8. Ukraine agrees not to join NATO/host NATO troops outright but receives security guarantees from the West in the event of Russia invading again
 
#65,668
#65,668
Burhead said:
1. Ukraine cedes control over Crimea to Russia
2. Russia recognizes Ukrainian control over the entire Donbas
3. Ukraine grants a form of autonomy to the east
4. Any former DNR/LNR official is granted amnesty but agrees not to take up arms against Kyiv again (anyone not wishing to stay in Ukraine is free to go to Russia)
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Hey genius, that is the Minsk II proposals that the Kyiv regime ignored for 7 years as the continued to bomb the Donbas.
Minsk agreements - Wikipedia
But as you and I both know, the Minsk agreements were used by NATO as a stalling effort to build up the Ukrainian military. Francois Hollande, Angela Merkel and Petro Poroshenko have openly admitted as such.

Burhead said:
5. Russia pays for reconstruction of war damages
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Again, already addressed in Minsk II. But even still, Russia has already started the rebuilding process in Mariupol and in parts of the Donbas. They will continue that reconstruction effort once the SMO is completed in the Russian controlled areas. That is also one of the main reason why Russia for the first 9-10 months tip toed as they did before they were forced to hit infrastructure targets after the Crimea Bridge and Nordstream attacks. They are fully aware of the devastation that destroying infrastructure is. Had this been the US, all energy facilities, water plants, railways, etc. would have been hit on Day 1, and you are fully aware of this.

Burhead said:
6. A DMZ/security barrier is created along the Russian/Ukrainian and Belarusian/Ukrainian borders patrolled by international peacekeepers
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So lets not even go back 30 years ago before German Reunification and the promise of not expanding NATO to the east. No reason to go there because you are going to put on your lawyer hat and say that it wasn't in writing. Fine. Lets just go back to December 2021 when the Russian Federation offered a new mutual security agreement to NATO/US. They ignored and rejected the proposal. The very item you are stating in #6 would have been addressed a year and a half ago.

Burhead said:
7. Russia turns over any commander/soldier involved in war crimes (Bucha, etc) to the Hague.
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Well, there are multiple issues with this. First off, will this be an equal trade? We have several videos of "Ukrainian Nationalists" committing war crimes. Also, you mention Bucha, probably have the Kramatorsk train station bombing and others in mind. Do you really think Russians did those? And, will the people that destroyed Nordstream Pipelines and Kerch Bridge face justice? Lastly, we've already been down this road in Serbia where they turned over Milosovic to The Hague. How did that turn out for Serbia?

Burhead said:
8. Ukraine agrees not to join NATO/host NATO troops outright but receives security guarantees from the West in the event of Russia invading again
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Again, 30 years too late. And besides, it isn't up to Ukraine. NATO has particular criteria for joining their coalition. Ukraine has every right and desire to join NATO. That is one thing, but if NATO is truly a defensive alliance and has a true desire to maintain peace in the region, then NATO has an obligation to NOT allow Ukraine or Georgia to enter NATO. So your phrasing there is rather disingenuous because you make it out that Ukraine holds the power to join NATO or not. No, it is NATO that has the power to either accept or reject them.

Secondly, here you go with your lawyer/slick talk. What do you mean be "outright"? See, this is where you argument that "Ukraine was no threat to Russia" goes out the window. That is some slick talk. And it is the thin end of the wedge for NATO/US to continue to arm Ukraine after a peace deal and bring us back to this same situation years down the line.
 
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#65,669
#65,669
Burhead said:
1. Ukraine cedes control over Crimea to Russia
2. Russia recognizes Ukrainian control over the entire Donbas
3. Ukraine grants a form of autonomy to the east
4. Any former DNR/LNR official is granted amnesty but agrees not to take up arms against Kyiv again (anyone not wishing to stay in Ukraine is free to go to Russia)
5. Russia pays for reconstruction of war damages
6. A DMZ/security barrier is created along the Russian/Ukrainian and Belarusian/Ukrainian borders patrolled by international peacekeepers
7. Russia turns over any commander/soldier involved in war crimes (Bucha, etc) to the Hague.
8. Ukraine agrees not to join NATO/host NATO troops outright but receives security guarantees from the West in the event of Russia invading again
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Not bad, but the security guarantees will have much more teeth this time. They may have to get creative with the wording so that Putin doesn’t feel like such a loser, but even if they don’t join NATO, they will get real security guarantees and likely fast tracked into the EU. Ukrainian “neutrality” is over.
 
#65,670
#65,670
Burhead said:
And I'll add that Western sanctions would be lifted in stages after the peace process starts.
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Oh Russia doesn't care about sanctions at this point. Europe is still buying oil and gas from Russia, just at marked up prices. Also, I've said this a thousand times, but I guess I have to say it a thousand and one times... YOU CANNOT SANCTION A COUNTRY THAT IS A TRADING PARTNER WITH CHINA!!!

Also, throw in India. So India and China, representing 25-30% of humanity vs the Europeans?

On a side note, the very thing that you all accuse Russia of doing (energy blackmail) is the very thing that Zelensky is doing when he threatens pipelines or raises transit fees for pipelines that pass through Ukraine. Meanwhile, Russia has still kept the taps open for oil and gas, even in spite of the sanctions.
 
#65,671
#65,671
Rasputin_Vol said:
Oh Russia doesn't care about sanctions at this point. Europe is still buying oil and gas from Russia, just at marked up prices. Also, I've said this a thousand times, but I guess I have to say it a thousand and one times... YOU CANNOT SANCTION A COUNTRY THAT IS A TRADING PARTNER WITH CHINA!!!

Also, throw in India. So India and China, representing 25-30% of humanity vs the Europeans?

On a side note, the very thing that you all accuse Russia of doing (energy blackmail) is the very thing that Zelensky is doing when he threatens pipelines or raises transit fees for pipelines that pass through Ukraine. Meanwhile, Russia has still kept the taps open for oil and gas, even in spite of the sanctions.
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Pretending Russia doesn’t care about sanctions is basically just turning your brain off.
 
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