War in Ukraine

#65,676
#65,676
Rasputin_Vol said:
Hey genius, that is the Minsk II proposals that the Kyiv regime ignored for 7 years as the continued to bomb the Donbas.
Minsk agreements - Wikipedia
But as you and I both know, the Minsk agreements were used by NATO as a stalling effort to build up the Ukrainian military. Francois Hollande, Angela Merkel and Petro Poroshenko have openly admitted as such.
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Minsk was openly violated time after time by the Russians.

Again, already addressed in Minsk II. But even still, Russia has already started the rebuilding process in Mariupol and in parts of the Donbas. They will continue that reconstruction effort once the SMO is completed in the Russian controlled areas. That is also one of the main reason why Russia for the first 9-10 months tip toed as they did before they were forced to hit infrastructure targets after the Crimea Bridge and Nordstream attacks. They are fully aware of the devastation that destroying infrastructure is. Had this been the US, all energy facilities, water plants, railways, etc. would have been hit on Day 1, and you are fully aware of this.
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The Russians are not doing any sort of true reconstruction in Mauripol nor any of the other occupied territories. Furthermore Kerch is a legit military target since it is a platform to resupply Crimea.


So lets not even go back 30 years ago before German Reunification and the promise of not expanding NATO to the east. No reason to go there because you are going to put on your lawyer hat and say that it wasn't in writing. Fine. Lets just go back to December 2021 when the Russian Federation offered a new mutual security agreement to NATO/US. They ignored and rejected the proposal. The very item you are stating in #6 would have been addressed a year and a half ago.
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Link me the proposal. Must have missed it.


Well, there are multiple issues with this. First off, will this be an equal trade? We have several videos of "Ukrainian Nationalists" committing war crimes. Also, you mention Bucha, probably have the Kramatorsk train station bombing and others in mind. Do you really think Russians did those? And, will the people that destroyed Nordstream Pipelines and Kerch Bridge face justice? Lastly, we've already been down this road in Serbia where they turned over Milosovic to The Hague. How did that turn out for Serbia?
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Sure war criminals need to be handled and what do you mean how did that turn out for Serbia?


Again, 30 years too late. And besides, it isn't up to Ukraine. NATO has particular criteria for joining their coalition. Ukraine has every right and desire to join NATO. That is one thing, but if NATO is truly a defensive alliance and has a true desire to maintain peace in the region, then NATO has an obligation to NOT allow Ukraine or Georgia to enter NATO. So your phrasing there is rather disingenuous because you make it out that Ukraine holds the power to join NATO or not. No, it is NATO that has the power to either accept or reject them.

Secondly, here you go with your lawyer/slick talk. What do you mean be "outright"? See, this is where you argument that "Ukraine was no threat to Russia" goes out the window. That is some slick talk. And it is the thin end of the wedge for NATO/US to continue to arm Ukraine after a peace deal and bring us back to this same situation years down the line.
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You know what I'm talking about, they never become an official member of NATO which is apparently a Russian red line. However they can be supplied/sold weapons by the West as they see fit since Russia sells weapons to their allies.
 
#65,677
#65,677
tvolsfan said:
Not bad, but the security guarantees will have much more teeth this time. They may have to get creative with the wording so that Putin doesn’t feel like such a loser, but even if they don’t join NATO, they will get real security guarantees and likely fast tracked into the EU. Ukrainian “neutrality” is over.
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The EU has security mechanisms in place but I’m not sure how concrete they are compared to NATO.
 
#65,678
#65,678
Minsk was openly violated time after time by the Russians.
If you call the Donbas Republics retaliating against the Kyiv regime as openly violating, fine. They are guilty. But now answer this, Germany and France were guarantors of the ceasefire agreement. You and I both know that Hollande, Merkel and Poroshenko used the ceasefire agreement as a way to buy time to arm Ukraine. You can't deny this fact. Also, McCain and Lindsey Graham in 2016...



The Russians are not doing any sort of true reconstruction in Mauripol nor any of the other occupied territories. Furthermore Kerch is a legit military target since it is a platform to resupply Crimea.

Link me the proposal. Must have missed it.

Again with the slick lawyer talk.

So lets not even go back 30 years ago before German Reunification and the promise of not expanding NATO to the east. No reason to go there because you are going to put on your lawyer hat and say that it wasn't in writing. Fine. Lets just go back to December 2021 when the Russian Federation offered a new mutual security agreement to NATO/US. They ignored and rejected the proposal. The very item you are stating in #6 would have been addressed a year and a half ago.
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Sure war criminals need to be handled and what do you mean how did that turn out for Serbia?

They turned over Milosovic and NATO took away Kosovo (by referendum).


You know what I'm talking about, they never become an official member of NATO which is apparently a Russian red line. However they can be supplied/sold weapons by the West as they see fit since Russia sells weapons to their allies.

Here again with the slick lawyer talk. What do you mean "an official member of NATO"?
 
#65,680
#65,680
#65,681
#65,681
My goodness... Could it be possible that our $800+ billion military budget could be cut down by 80%??? Wow...


Also, the guy interviewed said "clip" instead of "magazine". Dear Lord...

 
#65,682
#65,682
Rasputin_Vol said:
Go back to December 2021... all of that could have been addressed a year and a half ago.
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Lol, go back to to 2013 when Russia was threatening Ukraine for daring to sign a trade deal with with the EU, and then subsequently made good on those threats by invading Crimea and Eastern Ukraine.
 
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#65,683
#65,683
Rasputin_Vol said:
It isn't the same. The Russians are putting either trained military or trained mercenaries in the battle. The Kyiv regime is pulling IT programmers, grandads, the crippled and women to the frontlines.
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Imagine losing to IT programmers, grandads, crippled a women.

You have no self awareness.
 
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#65,685
#65,685
This may shock you but I don’t think any side is going to win an outright total victory on the battlefield. No matter how badly I want all the occupied territories to be liberated by Ukrainian forces and for Russia to be taught a lesson.

Any success on the battlefield will be to only improve one’s position at the negotiating table. This war will keep going until one side feels they have a enough leverage to hold over the other.
 
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#65,687
#65,687
Burhead said:
This may shock you but I don’t think any side is going to win an outright total victory on the battlefield. No matter how badly I want all the occupied territories to be liberated by Ukrainian forces and for Russia to be taught a lesson.

Any success on the battlefield will be to only improve one’s position at the negotiating table. This war will keep going until one side feels they have a enough leverage to hold over the other.
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The neocons and neo-liberal warmongers here are the ones that need to be taught the lesson.
 
#65,697
#65,697
Looks like my family friend...... And I reading between the lines...... appear to be correct. The Russian oligarchy fear Prigozhin and his army and this is why he is being withdrawn from the region and being sent to operate in Sudan.

I feel like this is likely where Prigozhin will meet his demise, just a gut feeling.
 
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#65,700
#65,700
Velo Vol said:
How pathetic is this?

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the funny thing about this guy is everyone forgets that NOBODY pushed harder for war under the Clinton administration than Ritter. Kept railing against the democrats claiming he was THIS close to finding bio weapons in Iraq before being pulled off the hunt multiple times. Then he goes to Russia and he does a 180 on everything, trying to make himself out like some kind of damn peacenik.
 
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