War in Ukraine

#70,201
#70,201
Rasputin_Vol said:
What good is all of this alleged intel going to do if we don't have the industrial base to support it? You can't just s#!t out machinists, technicians STEM Majors and factory floors.
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You are missing the point. We are building too much complexity in and making it all about quality over quantity. You are right, we do need the engineering majors and the blue collar workers that we've turned off. But there's another angle too many people are missing; my generation used to actually take things apart and fix them, tinker with them, figure out how they worked, but you can't do that these days.

There's a bit of the good and the bad involved. You can hang a large screen TV on the wall and view and ultra sharp picture with surround sound ... you just can't fix it or play around to see how it works. My first TVs were Heathkits that I built. I learned all about my car engine and carburetor by taking them apart - before that it was bicycles and electric trains. Engineering doesn't just come from a book; you have to get your hands in things and feel it out. I played with electronics all my life and repaired radar in the Army and switched from EE twice because it didn't "talk" to me - no real sense of what was happening. So your generation gets advanced cars with onboard diagnostics, lots of nice gimmicks, smooth ride and controls ... and no damn clue on how any of it works underneath. Other than plumbers and electricians we've almost killed the repair industry. Not holding out lots of hope on the "right to repair" lawsuits and outcomes.

The manufacturing industry is equally screwed. Once schools of business started preaching efficiency over all else as the model, it's been downhill ever since. Sure technology has brought the development of highly integrated electronics to replace assembly line electronics and allowed better integration of electronics and mechanical systems. Aircraft - particularly drones can be flown by game controllers if you want - same with cars; point and shoot more or less without any real real feedback from the car or plane. But as we take the person out of the equation then there's more and more lost in our fine motor skills and dexterity. It's like we are doing our best to eliminate the need for the intelligent and skilled man.
 
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#70,202
#70,202
Rasputin_Vol said:
Also, notice that you willing acknowledge that we are using the Ukrainians as our crash test dummies.
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So we should just let one country take over another instead? Remember a few days ago you were discussing the bad old days .... the days of conquest, colonization, slavery; and I tried making the point that as we've evolved we aren't the same people and it's wrong to judge the past by who we've become? Funny how you don't see Russia playing the old game of conquest and domination as evil. Even stranger coming from a country that fought and gained independence that you think we shouldn't help another country when it's being invaded by a larger and stronger neighbor.
 
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#70,204
#70,204
AM64 said:
You are missing the point. We are building too much complexity in and making it all about quality over quantity. You are right, we do need the engineering majors and the blue collar workers that we've turned off. But there's another angle too many people are missing; my generation used to actually take things apart and fix them, tinker with them, figure out how they worked, but you can't do that these days.

There's a bit of the good and the bad involved. You can hang a large screen TV on the wall and view and ultra sharp picture with surround sound ... you just can't fix it or play around to see how it works. My first TVs were Heathkits that I built. I learned all about my car engine and carburetor by taking them apart - before that it was bicycles and electric trains. Engineering doesn't just come from a book; you have to get your hands in things and feel it out. I played with electronics all my life and repaired radar in the Army and switched from EE twice because it didn't "talk" to me - no real sense of what was happening. So your generation gets advanced cars with onboard diagnostics, lots of nice gimmicks, smooth ride and controls ... and no damn clue on how any of it works underneath. Other than plumbers and electricians we've almost killed the repair industry. Not holding out lots of hope on the "right to repair" lawsuits and outcomes.

The manufacturing industry is equally screwed. Once schools of business started preaching efficiency over all else as the model, it's been downhill ever since. Sure technology has brought the development of highly integrated electronics to replace assembly line electronics and allowed better integration of electronics and mechanical systems. Aircraft - particularly drones can be flown by game controllers if you want - same with cars; point and shoot more or less without any real real feedback from the car or plane. But as we take the person out of the equation then there's more and more lost in our fine motor skills and dexterity. It's like we are doing our best to eliminate the need for the intelligent and skilled man.
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Part of that is Right to repair law.
 
#70,205
#70,205
AM64 said:
So we should just let one country take over another instead? Remember a few days ago you were discussing the bad old days .... the days of conquest, colonization, slavery; and I tried making the point that as we've evolved we aren't the same people and it's wrong to judge the past by who we've become? Funny how you don't see Russia playing the old game of conquest and domination as evil. Even stranger coming from a country that fought and gained independence that you think we shouldn't help another country when it's being invaded by a larger and stronger neighbor.
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Ukraine is none of our business. We have shown since the end of WWII that we have a pizz pour track record in bringing freedom and democracy to places such as Iran, Guatemala, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. We need to worry about our own damn borders at this point and keep all of the money sent overseas here at home.

Also, you shamelessly have no issue with the US benefitting off of this conflict by sending more Ukrainian young men (and old men) into an unwinnable war... just so we can allegedly get some weapons R&D. You are soulless.
 
#70,206
#70,206
AM64 said:
You are missing the point. We are building too much complexity in and making it all about quality over quantity. You are right, we do need the engineering majors and the blue collar workers that we've turned off. But there's another angle too many people are missing; my generation used to actually take things apart and fix them, tinker with them, figure out how they worked, but you can't do that these days.
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I have not missed or overlooked anything you have pointed out in this paragraph. I've pointed out these very issues before on several occasions. The MIC isn't in the business of making weapons for war. They are in the business of making profits. So selling the Pentagon high tech/high margin weapons in low volumes works in their favor. Plus (and this addresses you part about not repairing/tinkering) the contractors and vendors can come in and bill the Pentagon on repairs and maintenance.

Now, I'm not sure if you are aware of this, boomer, but China, Russia, Iran and other countries around the world live in the same high tech world that we do and they still pump out STEM majors. So clearly, it is a cultural distinction and not the fault of technology.
 
#70,207
#70,207
Burhead said:
I turned it off after he said Russian soldiers have treated Ukrainian POWs fairly and humanly that is a lie. Not worth listening to any garbage he spits out after that. There is ample evidence that Ukrainian POWs have been tortured and executed by Russian forces from the very start.
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Wagner and their sledgehammers are a pretty vivid example.
 
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#70,208
#70,208
tnmarktx said:
I'm more interested in the 400,000 Ukrainian troops killed. Another British military official had claimed 350,000 and that was months ago. Yet most on here proclaim the Ukraine is winning...
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we haven't seen nearly enough fighting to be close to that number. Unless you are including civilian losses, and then I can see it.

if the scale of loss implied is just military, especially if you consider the earlier claims of it "just" being 100k dead back in like February, it makes no sense for the results we are seeing now. You are talking at least 1/3 of the total armed forces of Ukraine gone. They wouldn't be considering an offensive, they would be scrambling just to hold the lines. Especially after they lost Ras's lynchpin of the whole war Bahkmut.
 
#70,210
#70,210
tnmarktx said:
Almost double the casualties seems like winning to you? Do you think Ukraine has an infinite number of troops. Last time I heard they had up to a million and already half are gone. In 18 months, when they're all gone, will they still be winning?
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wait wait wait. what type of inflation is this?

You JUST said it was 400k losses for Ukraine. Now in the span of 23 minutes they have lost more than a million?
 
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#70,211
#70,211
Rasputin_Vol said:
The Case for American-Led Peace in Ukraine

A Russian victory on these terms is a significant setback for the United States. The reputational damage to American competence and the NATO alliance would be colossal, as the best of NATO hardware and training has already gone into the Ukrainian military, and Russia would be able to make the claim that it stood alone against the West—and won. The Sino-Russian relationship would also strengthen. Finally, the cheap and effective weapons Russia uses to win the war, such as the Lancet, will flow to every regime opposed to American leadership around the world.

Therefore, it is imperative that the idea of a peace settlement amenable to all parties in the conflict—including Russia—takes hold and is seriously pursued in Washington. Influential American figures are already engaged in Track 1.5 diplomacy with their counterparts in Russia. These efforts should be encouraged, expanded, and form the basis for sustained engagement in peace negotiations. Only then will the United States be able to focus entirely on containing China, which is of paramount importance to American security and prosperity.
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what "best" equipment from the west has shown up?
They are just now getting Gen 3 aircraft from us, for the record the US is rocking Gen 5 aircraft. and nothing stealth has shown up.
We haven't seen any of the current use tanks in Ukraine, sure we have seen Leopard 2s and Challenger 2s, but all versions that haven't been produced in almost 15 years.
All of the missiles and longer range weapons have been older equipment as well. Some of that stuff is older than I am.
They certainly don't have access to our latest small arms.
the APCs/IFVs we have seen have all been phased out.

We HAVE seen some newer drones. but thats about it for "best".
 
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#70,212
#70,212
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#70,213
#70,213
From ISW on Wagner funding and pay.

Wagner Group financier Yevgeny Prigozhin may be trying to increase Wagner’s presence in Africa as part of an effort to maintain Wagner as a cohesive and independent organization. A Wagner recruitment Telegram channel announced on July 30 that Wagner stopped all recruitment and that all Russian regional recruitment centers suspended work indefinitely before advertising new jobs on August 21.[27] An OSINT monitoring group, “All Eyes on Wagner,” reported on August 22 that Wagner sources have been advertising jobs in the Middle East and Africa following Prigozhin’s August 21 claim that Wagner is expanding its presence in Africa.[28] The advertisement reportedly offers a monthly salary of 150,000 rubles (about $1,500) for jobs in the Middle East and 195,000 to 250,000 rubles (about $2,050 to $2,640) for jobs in Africa.[29] A Wagner recruitment Telegram channel consistently advertised the monthly salary for Wagner positions in Ukraine as 240,000 rubles (about $2,530) since the start of 2023.[30] The significant decrease in salary is consistent with recent reports that Wagner is financially struggling and may be losing personnel due to salary cuts.[31] ISW continues to assess that Wagner‘s new recruitment effort may indicate that Prigozhin is attempting to secure a contract in Africa and deploy existing and new personnel from Russia and Belarus, actions that Prigozhin may see as Wagner’s final option to maintain its independence from the Russian MoD.[32]
 
#70,214
#70,214
Also from ISW on Russian MoD wanting to limit Wagner influence.

A Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) delegation arrived in Libya on August 22, likely as part of the Russian MoD’s efforts to set conditions to possibly replace the Wagner Group with MoD-affiliated private military companies (PMCs). Libyan National Army Commander Marshal Khalifa Haftar invited the Russian MoD delegation, led by Deputy Defense Minister Colonel General Yunus-Bek Yevkurov, to Libya to discuss bilateral cooperation in combating international terrorism and other issues.[33] ISW has observed evidence indicating that Wagner forces continue to operate in Mali, Libya, and the Central African Republic.[34] The arrival of a Russian MoD delegation in Libya indicates that Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu likely maintains his reported objectives of taking over Russia’s relationships with African countries and replacing Wagner with MoD-affiliated PMCs.[35]
 
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