War in Ukraine

[BeardedVol]

Take it up with the NYT then..they love using anonymous sources and are not exactly anti aid to Ukraine.

Experts who are called up by reporters, and attorneys literally make their money by having their name and expertise attached to this sort of thing.

It makes zero sense that, if these experts were confident in both their analysis and the evidence that they were asked to evaluate, that they wouldn't want their name attached to the article.

 

[Orangeburst]

Experts who are called up by reporters, and attorneys literally make their money by having their name and expertise attached to this sort of thing.

It makes zero sense that, if these experts were confident in both their analysis and the evidence that they were asked to evaluate, that they wouldn't want their name attached to the article.

Hey I am just pointing out that the official VNPF Ukraine narrative that was tweeted to be Russian may not necessarily be accurate. Nothing more or less.

 

[hog88]

Hey I am just pouting out that the official VNPF Ukraine narrative that was tweeted to be Russian may not necessarily be accurate. Nothing more or less.

Never question the Ukraine narrative, the Branch Covidians have a new calling.

 

[Orangeburst]

Never question the Ukraine narrative, the Branch Covidians have a new calling.

I thought the NYT was deemed credible by most that post in here. The reason I posted it

 

[hog88]

I thought the NYT was deemed credible by most that post in here. The reason I posted it

They're credible when they print things the Ukrainiacs agree with, you should know this by now. Didn't you live through covid?

 

[LouderVol]

Hey I am just pointing out that the official VNPF Ukraine narrative that was tweeted to be Russian may not necessarily be accurate. Nothing more or less.

the problem is your article only published possibilities, but then used the questions raised from those possibilities as "proof" the attack was by Ukraine.

It would be one thing to provide the same message/conclusion if they had actually gone thru and either actually debunked the official message, or shown how their possibility was the only one. The issue is they didn't. they were begging the question. not proving it.

 

[Velo Vol]

Never question the Ukraine narrative, the Branch Covidians have a new calling.

I have no idea who launched the missile. I was just surprised that the NYT has enough reporters in Ukraine to be able to analyze missile fragments and the like.

 

[hog88]

I have no idea who launched the missile. I was just surprised that the NYT has enough reporters in Ukraine to be able to analyze missile fragments and the like.

I'm guessing that the analysis wasn't done by the reporters.

 

[Velo Vol]

I'm guessing that the analysis wasn't done by the reporters.

 

[Orangeburst]

the problem is your article only published possibilities, but then used the questions raised from those possibilities as "proof" the attack was by Ukraine.

It would be one thing to provide the same message/conclusion if they had actually gone thru and either actually debunked the official message, or shown how their possibility was the only one. The issue is they didn't. they were begging the question. not proving it.

Like I said..take it up with the NYT.

 

[evillawyer]

You don’t gas about Ukraine, just hate Russia..cause the lie that was Trump Russian collusion. You have allied with Lindsey Graham and Bolden

I'm not discounting the possibility it's a errant Ukrainian missile. I'm big on internationally recognized borders and not stealing other people's sh*t. Russia recognized Ukraine's borders and sovereignty until they didn't. If they hadn't invaded Ukraine, this wouldn't have happened. This is ultimately on Russia, especially if this was an air defense missile fired in response to a Russian attack on Ukraine.

 

[Orangeburst]

I'm not discounting the possibility it's an errant Ukrainian missile. I'm big on internationally recognized borders and not stealing other people's sh*t. Russia recognized Ukraine's borders and sovereignty until they didn't. If they hadn't invaded Ukraine, this wouldn't have happened. This is ultimately on Russia, especially if this was an air defense missile fired in response to a Russian attack on Ukraine.

i agree

 

[hog88]

View attachment 580623

Thanks for the blurb with no context.

How long ago was this missile strike? A few weeks? A month ago? Plenty of time to send fragments to experts for analysis.

 

[LouderVol]

Like I said..take it up with the NYT.

I am taking it up with the person who posted it here.

 

[Orangeburst]

I am taking it up with the person who posted it here.

Well you can all day long then..I dont care what you think

 

[LouderVol]

Well you can all day long then..I dont care what you think

then what was the point of sharing an article if you didn't care about the holes in their conclusion?

I didn't attack the NYT. I attacked what they wrote, and the logic of their arguments.

 

[AM64]

You know people aren't serious about addressing the debt when they only point the finger at foreign spending and don't mention SS/Medicare, which is where the real money is being spent.

Yea another cluster **** government non voluntary entitlement program that took money away to give back to to us later in life. One has to start eating the elephant one bite at a time with discretionary spending. In a few years a $1.4T annual debt interest that will be as big as all discretionary spending.

Don't forget that Medicare/Medicaid was a great dem social handout added more recently. SS was always going to be a Ponzi scheme based on population growth and at least a constant work force participation. The work force participation (largely ignored) and the shift from manufacturing to service are unsustainable - both with respect to the economy as a whole and certainly to SS/Medicare. I can't completely fault the thinking behind the SS concept because if it didn't exist it would be replaced by multiple welfare programs to sustain people who never prepared for retirement ... and that isn't a priority for people living paycheck to paycheck ... it would be a much larger percentage of the population than any of us would like to believe.

SS started out in debt by paying out to retirees who never paid in to the system. My generation (as one of the first baby boomers) still saw some of our SS taxes going to SS recipients who never paid into the system at all; we all see or have seen current SS taxes going to recipients who paid in smaller amounts. That's due to inflation, and another thing that makes constant inflation destructive and in the end an economy killer.

The real problem with SS is the constant addon programs and a failure to establish an untouchable trust fund to keep congressional fingers out of the SS funding in the first place. Our biggest problem across the board is that we have no real government, corporate, or investment leadership; the people in charge are certainly not stewards, rather they are more generally greedy opportunists with no rational thought or care about how an economic system functions or fails.

 

[AM64]

they don't offer any real proof. just possibilities. each one of their points also highlights the possibilities of it being Russians.

The alleged missile system, shoots both air & ground targets, uses a missile Russia has used, and was fired at a certain time.

The timing is the best thing they have proof of with multiple witnesses. but considering it is also an anti-air/missile system, they could have been shooting at an incoming Russian missile.

They fired two missiles, what happened to the other one? Seems if it was a planned false flag both would have hit a Ukrainian target.
The article even mentions that the city had been attack by Russians the day before after Ukraine launched artillery attacks from nearby. The article also says similar attacks from Ukrainian territory happened the same day. so this could easily be more counter battery fire/revenge type.

a couple options I see possible based on purely the information provided in the article.
The Buk engaged the incoming attack with two of its own missiles. The two defense missiles may have missed the one missile.
One may have hit one target, and the second one missed the target allowing the Russian missile to land in the market.
The Russians may have launched 3, or more missiles, but with only 2 responses one got thru.
or it could be the market was hit by a stray Ukrainian missile as suggested.

Seems like there are 4 plausible stories, including the official story, and the article doesn't do anything but raise the possibility of another option outside of the official story.

no real proof. no real reasoning why one story or option from above is any more likely than another.

again it could be a case of friendly fire, just saying this article did nothing but raise that possibility. didn't remove any other options, didn't argue why one was more likely than another.

There's always that one huge problem with air defense weapons. What goes up must come down ... and it's often fired over places the air defense is trying to protect. Even if the intercept is good, there's probably going to be fallout on friendly territory.

 

[LouderVol]

There's always that one huge problem with air defense weapons. What goes up must come down ... and it's often fired over places the air defense is trying to protect. Even if the intercept is good, there's probably going to be fallout on friendly territory.

especially when shooting at very hard to hit things like other missiles or drones. high chance to miss. I am wondering if AA missiles need to come with some sort of airburst default just set pretty high to minimize the damage when they miss? There will still be debris, but at least the worst of the energy will be dispelled before getting down to people level.

 

[AM64]

especially when shooting at very hard to hit things like other missiles or drones. high chance to miss. I am wondering if AA missiles need to come with some sort of airburst default just set pretty high to minimize the damage when they miss? There will still be debris, but at least the worst of the energy will be dispelled before getting down to people level.

I'm pretty sure I've read that at least some missiles have a self destruct if they pass beyond the target. Not all AA missiles use explosive warheads - some are just meant for kinetic impacts and some as I recall may contain projectiles such as rods that are dispersed with a small charge with the intent of broadening the spread. In the end though whether a missile or a projectile fired from a gun, what goes up is coming back down subject to the laws of physics ... gravity and air resistance.

 

[USF grad in TN]

Don't forget that Medicare/Medicaid was a great dem social handout added more recently. SS was always going to be a Ponzi scheme based on population growth and at least a constant work force participation. The work force participation (largely ignored) and the shift from manufacturing to service are unsustainable - both with respect to the economy as a whole and certainly to SS/Medicare. I can't completely fault the thinking behind the SS concept because if it didn't exist it would be replaced by multiple welfare programs to sustain people who never prepared for retirement ... and that isn't a priority for people living paycheck to paycheck ... it would be a much larger percentage of the population than any of us would like to believe.

SS started out in debt by paying out to retirees who never paid in to the system. My generation (as one of the first baby boomers) still saw some of our SS taxes going to SS recipients who never paid into the system at all; we all see or have seen current SS taxes going to recipients who paid in smaller amounts. That's due to inflation, and another thing that makes constant inflation destructive and in the end an economy killer.

The real problem with SS is the constant addon programs and a failure to establish an untouchable trust fund to keep congressional fingers out of the SS funding in the first place. Our biggest problem across the board is that we have no real government, corporate, or investment leadership; the people in charge are certainly not stewards, rather they are more generally greedy opportunists with no rational thought or care about how an economic system functions or fails.

Life expectancy in 1935 was about 60 years. With life expectancy in the upper 70s, the math is very different. Retirement age will have to increase to get a more reasonable ratio of workers to beneficiaries.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Moment Russian Missile Kills 17 People in Ukrainian Market Massacre as Bloody War Rages On​

Russian shelling of a packed market in the Ukrainian city of Kostiantynivka killed at least 17 people this afternoon, including one child, and wounded at least 32, according to Ukrainian officials.

The attack, which targeted the Mercury shopping centre in the town in Donetsk, whipped up an inferno that tore through market stalls and destroyed several cars.

View attachment 576493
Cars ablaze in a scene of devastation as the market burns following Russian shelling

View attachment 576494
Police and other rescuers carry a body bag out of the market following the attack

View attachment 576495
The street is littered with burnt-out cars, and the windows are broken in neighbouring shops

View attachment 576496
Smoke hangs in the air and incinerated cars lie strewn in front of gutted businesses

Moment Russian missile kills 17 people at market in Ukraine

Shocking footage of the incident shared by locals on Telegram showed terrified residents sprinting from the scene as orange flames raged in the background, trailing thick black smoke.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Russian missile???

Evidence suggests errant Ukrainian missile hit busy market - New York Times

Evidence suggests a deadly explosion at a busy market in the eastern Ukrainian city of Kostiantynivka this month was caused by an errant missile fired by Ukraine, the New York Times reported on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

KYIV, Sept 19 (Reuters) - Evidence suggests a deadly explosion at a busy market in the eastern Ukrainian city of Kostiantynivka this month was caused by an errant missile fired by Ukraine, the New York Times reported on Tuesday.

Ukraine has said the Sept. 6 blast, which killed at least 16 people, was caused by a Russian missile.

"Evidence collected and analyzed by The New York Times, including missile fragments, satellite imagery, witness accounts and social media posts, strongly suggests the catastrophic strike was the result of an errant Ukrainian air defense missile fired by a Buk launch system," the newspaper reported.

 

[evillawyer]

Russian missile???

Evidence suggests errant Ukrainian missile hit busy market - New York Times

Evidence suggests a deadly explosion at a busy market in the eastern Ukrainian city of Kostiantynivka this month was caused by an errant missile fired by Ukraine, the New York Times reported on Tuesday.

www.reuters.com

KYIV, Sept 19 (Reuters) - Evidence suggests a deadly explosion at a busy market in the eastern Ukrainian city of Kostiantynivka this month was caused by an errant missile fired by Ukraine, the New York Times reported on Tuesday.

Ukraine has said the Sept. 6 blast, which killed at least 16 people, was caused by a Russian missile.

"Evidence collected and analyzed by The New York Times, including missile fragments, satellite imagery, witness accounts and social media posts, strongly suggests the catastrophic strike was the result of an errant Ukrainian air defense missile fired by a Buk launch system," the newspaper reported.

Here comes Ras prancing around, apparently thinking Russia has some moral high ground here because it (maybe, possibly) wasn't a Russian missile killing Ukrainian civilians this time, but a Ukrainian missile trying prevent a Russian missile from killing Ukrainian civilians that accidentally killed Ukrainian civilians. Not the dunk you think it is, Ras.

It's the equivalent of a cop who engages a mass shooter but one of the cop's bullets hits a bystander. Don't think the mass shooter takes a victory lap there, do you @Rasputin_Vol?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

 

[BeardedVol]

Source: "Поверь мне, брат"