War in Ukraine

#78,752
#78,752
MontyPython said:
The US, UK and Russia gave its word to the Ukrainian people that if they gave up their nukes, each nation would ensure their security.

Fact.

Then Russia ignored that promise and invaded them.

Now we can either live up to our word that we'll ensure their security or simply renege on our word.

Clearly, you're not a man of your word. Instead you opt to joust in verbal semantics with your own ethically-devoid mind.
Click to expand...
I am a man of my word, I just know what my words mean before I use them. I am also a man who knows that slick Willy was pulling a fast one. not my fault you are naive and trust politicians.

I have said it multiple times, I would absolutely support a situation where Article 5 is called in. The Memorandum doesn't have those same guarantees, and your own quotes have shown that, and instead of dealing with that you are making personal attacks, which shows you don't have a real argument.

the memorandum says we would support them. we have done that, word met. we have done too much imo. The memorandum doesn't spell out what is required in that support, so it is completely open to interpretation, blame our politicians, not me, I didn't write it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tbh and Orangeburst
#78,753
#78,753
tnmarktx said:
I thought it was a forgone conclusion that they’d win. At least that’s what has been stated throughout much of this thread. Is this not the case now?
Click to expand...

So I ask again, does Ukraine still exist, or has Putin succeeded in his goal of erasing Ukraine as a sovereign nation, and subjugating its people?
 
#78,756
#78,756
tnmarktx said:
Who’s winning?
Click to expand...
we have been hearing that Russia has been winning this whole time. Bakhmut was breaking Ukraine, once they finally got through Bakhmut it was all over. then the next and the next and the next.

Russia has been days away from winning for more than 2 years now. at some point they have to produce if they want people want to believe them.
 
#78,757
#78,757
LouderVol said:
I am a man of my word, I just know what my words mean before I use them. I am also a man who knows that slick Willy was pulling a fast one. not my fault you are naive and trust politicians.

I have said it multiple times, I would absolutely support a situation where Article 5 is called in. The Memorandum doesn't have those same guarantees, and your own quotes have shown that, and instead of dealing with that you are making personal attacks, which shows you don't have a real argument.

the memorandum says we would support them. we have done that, word met. we have done too much imo. The memorandum doesn't spell out what is required in that support, so it is completely open to interpretation, blame our politicians, not me, I didn't write it.
Click to expand...

So your position is that you support our current level of support, yes?

I mean, that is what we said we'd do. So we're living up to that promise.

There's nothing left to debate here.
 
#78,758
#78,758
LouderVol said:
we have been hearing that Russia has been winning this whole time. Bakhmut was breaking Ukraine, once they finally got through Bakhmut it was all over. then the next and the next and the next.

Russia has been days away from winning for more than 2 years now. at some point they have to produce if they want people want to believe them.
Click to expand...
That’s funny, this thread is packed full of people that have been saying that Ukraine is wiping the floor with Russia. Claiming that the money sent to Ukraine was the best money ever spent.
 
#78,759
#78,759
tnmarktx said:
That’s funny, this thread is packed full of people that have been saying that Ukraine is wiping the floor with Russia. Claiming that the money sent to Ukraine was the best money ever spent.
Click to expand...

With your concept of "winning" in warfare, I'm sure you'd have thought Germany had won World War 2 when France surrendered in 1940.

Ukraine is killing Russian soldiers in large quantities, but Putin seems to be more than willing to trade Russian lives for any territorial gains, regardless of how small or tactically insignificant they are to his overall goal of subjugating all of Ukraine.
 
#78,760
#78,760
BeardedVol said:
Lol, who would have thought that a known Russian propaganda outlet like ZeroHedge would be calling for Ukraine to surrender to Russia, rather than for Russia to cease making war upon Ukraine?

Click to expand...


A far better breakdown IMO is by Cappy - who is pro-Ukraine but far more realistic and much much more detailed.


And based on what he says, its not looking great for Ukraine atm.
 
#78,761
#78,761
Frankly it hasn't looked great for Ukraine since Day 1 of this war. I personally thought Russia would have put them away in a month or two at the most. Yet they are still fighting. Ever day they are still fighting is a win.

Russia has heavily invested in Military under Putin and spends 20x the funding on military (if not more) than Ukraine. Russia has 6x the population and manpower of Ukraine.

Yet here we are, the war is still going on.
 
#78,762
#78,762
tnmarktx said:
Who’s winning?
Click to expand...

Well, you were not given the new narrative, the new narrative is USA hegemony. This was the evil part all along, now its being used as some type of positive marketing. When the ghost disappears, all the silly shovels stories, or the washing machine computer chip stories, or how Russia was just a gasoline station masquerading as a country, etc. ran its course.... we're now onto.... it was never about the Ukraine actually winning anything.

They are basically saying the quiet part out loud now ie Evil.

Nobody cares about those people, never did, they never cared about the invading force - only that it could help there cause.

Now we're onto, we'll the Ukraine has done better than anyone though. I wonder if they thought the Taliban would win the war against a $1-2 trillion dollar empire war machine with absolutely no budget to speak of while living in caves with no food or F-16s? All those Americans died for absolutely no reason.

Basically, evil people that basically refuse to acknowledge the true nature of their own government or themselves, rinse and repeat.

"Hey guys, look... we gave them another $10 billion. Look now those stupid idiots can go round up some more guys and throw them into the van to take some FABs to the head for FREEDOM!!!!!!"

I don't know who will win, but I can say there was nothing for the Ukraine to win from the start - once they got into bed with the United States it was just about how much they were going to lose. The Ukraine is just a place where the world has decided to take a piss.
 
Last edited:
#78,764
#78,764
MontyPython said:
Seems the US has now agreed to allow US weapons to hit within Russian proper territory.

Gloves are off.
Click to expand...

The fact that there were ever any restrictions at all as far as targeting military, and military adjacent infrastructure inside Russian territory is a failing of the administration as a whole, and the idiot Jake Sullivan in particular.
 
#78,765
#78,765
MontyPython said:
So your position is that you support our current level of support, yes?

I mean, that is what we said we'd do. So we're living up to that promise.

There's nothing left to debate here.
Click to expand...
at the start I was fine with the level of support. Not sure where exactly my line was, but it certainly became too much. I was already past my line, but one big example of things gone too far is when our politicians put a border policy on hold until Ukraine got funded.

no intra-American policy should ever, ever, be on the line or wait for any bit of foreign aid. all foreign aid should be at the absolute very bottom of the list of things to do. they should be the items that Congress is constantly like, yeah we will get to it right after our next break, we super duper promise.

unfortunately for your argument you have people actively arguing that we should get more involved, sending troops to fight. there is plenty to debate, you are arguing for the next Afghanistan, just far more expensive, with far far more dead Americans. with just as little to show for it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tbh
#78,766
#78,766
tnmarktx said:
That’s funny, this thread is packed full of people that have been saying that Ukraine is wiping the floor with Russia. Claiming that the money sent to Ukraine was the best money ever spent.
Click to expand...
yes, and I have argued against them because they are wrong. but you are ignoring the multiple guys who have been in from the start proclaiming total Russian victory every time the Russians took the next stop sign.
 
#78,767
#78,767
BeardedVol said:
With your concept of "winning" in warfare, I'm sure you'd have thought Germany had won World War 2 when France surrendered in 1940.

Ukraine is killing Russian soldiers in large quantities, but Putin seems to be more than willing to trade Russian lives for any territorial gains, regardless of how small or tactically insignificant they are to his overall goal of subjugating all of Ukraine.
Click to expand...
You keep avoiding answering the question. There’s two combatants in this war. Who is getting the better of who?
 
#78,769
#78,769
GNw26ySXgAA3i7U
 
#78,770
#78,770
tnmarktx said:
You keep avoiding answering the question. There’s two combatants in this war. Who is getting the better of who?
Click to expand...

He kept avoiding joining up as well.

1. Ukraine needs massive amounts of new meat for the grinder
2. Ukraine needs massive amounts of shells which do not exist
3. Ukraine needs to find a way to stop their immediate issue i.e. FABs

I don't see a solution to their multiple issues on the short or medium timetable, and maybe never. There has to be something outside of the battlefield or normal battlefield to drastically change the outcome i.e. nuclear weapons, dirty bomb, nuclear reactor, assassination, financial collapse, etc. Its been this same way for 9-12 months. The glide kits didn't change the outcome of all this, but it did change the timetable.... from decades to probably years.

Until someone finds solutions to the immediate issues its hard to imagine how the tide changes drastically. The best time to come to terms was yesterday, and the day before, and the day before that....
 
#78,772
#78,772
tnmarktx said:
Still avoiding the question I see. The crow will still be available for as long as Ukraine doesn’t win this war.
Click to expand...

No, I just don't subscribe to your ultra-narrow interpretation of what "winning" during an active conflict means, due to a poor understanding of warfare in general

Putin's goal is for Ukraine to cease to exist as a sovereign nation, in 2.5 years of attempting to reach that goal, Russia has failed to do so, and Ukraine still exists.
 
#78,773
#78,773
BeardedVol said:
No, I just don't subscribe to your ultra-narrow interpretation of what "winning" during an active conflict means, due to a poor understanding of warfare in general

Putin's goal is for Ukraine to cease to exist as a sovereign nation, in 2.5 years of attempting to reach that goal, Russia has failed to do so, and Ukraine still exists.
Click to expand...
So your actual real answer is that you support the suffering of the Ukrainian people, the wasting of American tax dollars, and the agenda of a corrupt uniparty gov.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LSU-SIU
#78,774
#78,774
tnmarktx said:
So your actual real answer is that you support the suffering of the Ukrainian people, the wasting of American tax dollars, and the agenda of a corrupt uniparty gov.
Click to expand...

I support the Ukrainian people defending themselves and their nation from Russia's genocidal invasion.

One thing we've definitely learned because of this war, is who on this message board would be the first to surrender to an invader were the US ever faced with an invasion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MontyPython
#78,775
#78,775

As Russia Advances, NATO Considers Sending Trainers Into Ukraine​



So far the United States has said no, but Gen. Charles Q. Brown Jr., the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said on Thursday that a NATO deployment of trainers appeared inevitable. “We’ll get there eventually, over time,” he said.
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top