War in Ukraine

[McDad]

To clarify… an active defense isn’t a part of being sovereign unless your sovereignty is threatened. Ukraine is sovereign today. In order to keep that sovereignty in tact at this point will require an active defense against the Russian invaders. Think about it as the pragmatic element required to guarantee you keep your sovereignty in tact that’s all

We declared ourselves sovereign in 1776. In order to maintain that declaration we had to fight and we won. In the mid 1800’s the south declared themselves sovereign. They had to fight to maintain it and they lost. They are now integrated into the United States of America just as before their sovereign declaration.

In that amplification, we can see LSUSIU is correct when he said sovereignty is defined by the victors of the war (paraphrased).

 

[McDad]

That's the issue, relativity, opinion, etc. Let's take Hungry, are they sovereign? I mean, they have ceded a good portion of the government and self-determination to Brussels. And a good portion goes all the way back to the U.S. and the global financial system.

In my opinion, yes. Hungary is sovereign. It has a fixed population, it has defined borders, and it has a government capable of self determination. The last point is, I think, similar to your point about a nation is capable of self sufficiency but doesn't have to be isolationist.

 

[BeardedVol]

That's the issue, relativity, opinion, etc. Let's take Hungry, are they sovereign? I mean, they have ceded a good portion of the government and self-determination to Brussels. And a good portion goes all the way back to the U.S. and the global financial system.

Hungary applied to join the EU, they were not forced to do so.

There are requirements that a country must meet to join the EU.

There are requirements that a country must maintain to reap the benefits of being a member of the EU.

Hungary can leave the EU if they choose to do so.

Withdrawal from the European Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hungary is no less "sovereign" today, than the day that they petitioned to join the EU, and agreed to uphold the conditions required of membership.

 

[NorthDallas40]

In that amplification, we can see LSUSIU is correct when he said sovereignty is defined by the victors of the war (paraphrased).

On the continuity of a country’s sovereignty sure. I don’t know why that’s ever been contested. If you don’t want to be subjugated by aggression and can’t protect yourself you might be sovereign for a time longer but eventually that will go away.

And none of this addresses the illegal acts of the aggressor which is another point he continually avoids/ignores. Russia recognized and affirmed Ukraine’s sovereignty… until they decided they didn’t want to anymore. Thus nobody should trust anything they say would be an obvious conclusion and if some countries feel strongly enough about it they can assist Ukraine in maintaining their sovereignty

 

[McDad]

Hungary applied to join the EU, they were not forced to do so.

There are requirements that a country must meet to join the EU.

There are requirements that a country must maintain to reap the benefits of being a member of the EU.

Hungary can leave the EU if they choose to do so.

Withdrawal from the European Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hungary is no less "sovereign" today, than the day that they petitioned to join the EU, and agreed to uphold the conditions required of membership.

agreed.

All EU-affiliated countries have voluntarily joined together and have agreed to make determinations based on the interests of all affiliated countries.

 

[LSU-SIU]

In my opinion, yes. Hungary is sovereign. It has a fixed population, it has defined borders, and it has a government capable of self determination. The last point is, I think, similar to your point about a nation is capable of self sufficiency but doesn't have to be isolationist.

Is Iraqi sovereign? Is Syria sovereign?

 

[McDad]

On the continuity of a country’s sovereignty sure. I don’t know why that’s ever been contested. If you don’t want to be subjugated by aggression and can’t protect yourself you might be sovereign for a time longer but eventually that will go away.

And none of this addresses the illegal acts of the aggressor which is another point he continually avoids/ignores. Russia recognized and affirmed Ukraine’s sovereignty… until they decided they didn’t want to anymore. Thus nobody should trust anything they say would be an obvious conclusion and if some countries feel strongly enough about it they can assist Ukraine in maintaining their sovereignty

I am going to get to that as well. Now that we have a working understanding of sovereignty, I think we can move forward with Russia signing documents affirming sovereignty and invading an independent country (if what Russia signed is held in place).

 

[McDad]

Is Iraqi sovereign? Is Syria sovereign?

Yes x 2. They both meet my defining elements for sovereignty.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Yes x 2. They both meet my defining elements for sovereignty.

So, what's the problem with Russian troops there?

I guess I don't understand the nature of this discussion.

 

[NorthDallas40]

I am going to get to that as well. Now that we have a working understanding of sovereignty, I think we can move forward with Russia signing documents affirming sovereignty and invading an independent country (if what Russia signed is held in place).

 

[McDad]

So, what's the problem with Russian troops there?

I guess I don't understand the nature of this discussion.

I don't know if there is, or is not a problem.

Are they Russian troops invading the country against their will? Are those troops attacking the people of those independent countries?

For me, just because troops are on the ground doesn't mean a nation's sovereignty is violated.

 

[McDad]

View attachment 657268

We've had a good, illuminating discussion so far while you have been impatient.

 

[LSU-SIU]

I don't know if there is, or is not a problem.

Are they Russian troops invading the country against their will? Are those troops attacking the people of those independent countries?

For me, just because troops are on the ground doesn't mean a nation's sovereignty is violated.

So, if they are attacking instead of occupying that would be different?

If the Ukrainians would just put their weapons down they could maintain their sovereignty?

(just my two cents, I'm sure both the Syrians and Iraqis would say they were invaded... the U.S. would say liberated or attempted)

 

[NorthDallas40]

I don't know if there is, or is not a problem.

Are they Russian troops invading the country against their will? Are those troops attacking the people of those independent countries?

For me, just because troops are on the ground doesn't mean a nation's sovereignty is violated.

Oh I’d offer there is a clear distinction in Cinderella’s examples. I’m still waiting on referendums from Syria or Iraq regions to join Russia. As I said he completely ignores expansionist Russian aggression because he cannot coherently fold it into his narrative.

 

[evillawyer]

Your guide for the upcoming posts from @Rasputin_Vol, @volgr and @LSU-SIU

 

[LSU-SIU]

Your guide for the upcoming posts from @Rasputin_Vol, @volgr and @LSU-SIU

I don't know what this means to be honest. It will have no bearing to the outcome of the conflict.

 

[McDad]

So, if they are attacking instead of occupying that would be different?

If the Ukrainians would just put their weapons down they could maintain their sovereignty?

Aggressively attacking the people of a sovereign nation is wrong, all things being equal.
Occupying could be wrong depending on the circumstances and intentions.

Ukrainians retain sovereignty because it is inherent. It isn't conditional. Ukrainian sovereignty ends if/when another country overtakes them or they voluntarily relinquish it to another country.

Ukraine is fighting to defend its inherent sovereignty.

Added after your edit:
If Iraq or Syria were invaded, then their sovereignty is violated regardless of how another country see it.

 

[LouderVol]

That's the issue, relativity, opinion, etc. Let's take Hungry, are they sovereign? I mean, they have ceded a good portion of the government and self-determination to Brussels. And a good portion goes all the way back to the U.S. and the global financial system.

and yet they are not lock step with the rest. on multiple items including the support for Ukraine.

you will find far more dissent amongst the western puppets than you will amongst Russian puppets. a lot fewer broken upper story windows too.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Ukraine is fighting to defend its inherent sovereignty.

Is that what throwing guys into vans is? What happens if the Ukrainian government is just doing that because someone else is telling them because they're not sovereign?

 

[McDad]

Is that what throwing guys into vans is? What happens if the Ukrainian government is just doing that because someone else is telling them because they're not sovereign?

I don't know what throwing guys into vans references.

I don't know what the "that" is referencing and I don't know what happens in your hypothetical.

 

[LSU-SIU]

I don't know what throwing guys into vans references.

I don't know what the "that" is referencing and I don't know what happens in your hypothetical.

Well, if they kidnap men on the streets and throw them by force into ditches to receive bombs is that what sovereignty is?

I disagree with your assessment that they are sovereign, as I mentioned before. So, what you did was proclaim they are sovereign than worked it out to where they are defending it. To me, it just looks like they are doing what their bitch asses are told at the Ukrainian government level.

I would say even under your definition they are not sovereign. (ie opinion)

Don't worry all this will get worked out naturally.

Under your definition even, my cow's field is sovereign. 1. self-govern 2. border 3. population Eventually the evil invader comes in and tells them how it is i.e. me.

 

[McDad]

Well, if they kidnap men on the streets and throw them by force into ditches to receive bombs is that what sovereignty is?

I disagree with your assessment that they are sovereign, as I mentioned before. So, what you did was proclaim they are sovereign than worked it out to where they are defending it. To me, it just looks like they are doing what their bitch asses are told at the Ukrainian government level.

I understand we have different ways of delineating sovereignty. I am responding as I see their independence. Not as you do.

In general, I believe sovereignty is not dependent on the government or the country being good, or doing good things. North Korea is sovereign and I personally think the government is despicable. Also, I am not a good person to ask about what comes out of the Ukrainian conflict on either side because I tend to be cynical and skeptical that the majority of stuff is propaganda.

 

[LSU-SIU]

I understand we have different ways of delineating sovereignty. I am responding as I see their independence. Not as you do.

In general, I believe sovereignty is not dependent on the government or the country being good, or doing good things. North Korea is sovereign and I personally think the government is despicable. Also, I am not a good person to ask about what comes out of the Ukrainian conflict on either side because I tend to be cynical and skeptical that the majority of stuff is propaganda.

I think I lost track where you want this to go. These are very loose concepts that people overuse. "Freedom" is the war cry of every nation.

At the end of the day, Russia is going to redefined some borders, imo. I don't see this working out well for the Ukraine in its 2022 form. I hope it was worth it for someone.

 

[McDad]

I think I lost track where you want this to go. These are very loose concepts that people overuse. "Freedom" is the war cry of every nation.

At the end of the day, Russia is going to redefined some borders, imo. I don't see this working out well for the Ukraine in its 2022 form. I hope it was worth it for someone.

I don't want this to go anywhere...I didn't have an agenda to score debate points or whatever. I wanted to understand how you think about Ukraine wrt Independence.

Has Russia affirmed Ukraine's independence since the early 1990s?

 

[BeardedVol]

I don't want this to go anywhere...I didn't have an agenda to score debate points or whatever. I wanted to understand how you think about Ukraine wrt Independence.

Has Russia affirmed Ukraine's independence since the early 1990s?

Yes.

Putin's 2008 Comments On Crimea, Before A Sharp Change Of Tack

In an interview with Germany's ARD television in 2008, Russian President Vladimir Putin stated that Moscow recognizes all of Ukraine's borders, and that there is no issue of ethnic conflict in Crimea. His comments stand in stark contrast with Moscow's annexation of Crimea in 2014.

www.rferl.org