War in Ukraine

#80,751
#80,751
LSU-SIU said:
Well, you can answer the question than, what is it? I have asked you in good faith a few times now.

I would say its an opinion, what you have pinpointed is only one of many things I would look at... but maybe the most important one at this stage in history.
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With that being the most important, that's a start for me. Thanks.

A sovereign country is capable of self sufficiency apart from other nations, but doesn't have to be totally isolationist, correct?
 
#80,753
#80,753
McDad said:
With that being the most important, that's a start for me. Thanks.

A sovereign country is capable of self sufficiency apart from other nations, but doesn't have to be totally isolationist, correct?
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I would generally agree, but the devil could be in the details i.e. opinion based on many factors.
 
#80,757
#80,757
LSU-SIU said:
I would generally agree, but the devil could be in the details i.e. opinion based on many factors.
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Are there certain elements of affiliation with other countries which are more indicting to be considered sovereign?

For example, America trades with China but both would be considered sovereign? In contrast, America supports Israel (money and defense) and that would mean Israel is not independent?

By the way, I am using independent and sovereign as synonyms but understand that may not be true for you.
 
#80,759
#80,759
McDad said:
Are there certain elements of affiliation with other countries which are more indicting to be considered sovereign?

For example, America trades with China but both would be considered sovereign? In contrast, America supports Israel (money and defense) and that would mean Israel is not independent?

By the way, I am using independent and sovereign as synonyms but understand that may not be true for you.
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As I said it could be many factors, some countries like China are basically immune as if the U.S. cut them off from the financial system completely... the whole system would probably collapse in a matter of days if not hours.

Its a generalization. Is Europe sovereign anymore? Not really, that is why the U.S. goes around and uses their hammer on them. The illusion of sovereignty is disappearing, or more like the truth.... they never really were.
 
#80,760
#80,760
LSU-SIU said:
As I said it could be many factors, some countries like China are basically immune as if the U.S. cut them off from the financial system completely... the whole system would probably collapse in a matter of days if not hours.

Its a generalization. Is Europe sovereign anymore? Not really, that is why the U.S. goes around and uses their hammer on them. The illusion of sovereignty is disappearing, or more like the truth.... they never really were.
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Your first sentence after the comma is difficult for me to comprehend.

China is basically immune AND would collapse if cut off from the US???? Did I read that as you intended?
 
#80,761
#80,761
McDad said:
Yall aren't helping. I am not looking to be proven right. I am not looking for logical sequences in his thought. I am interested in how he came to the thoughts he has.

Whether I agree with those thoughts is another matter. If someone doesn't think Ukraine was ever independent and Russia simply agreed to let them act independently to a certain point, I can understand how someone would be more favorable to Russia in the war.
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Don't worry, he claims to have us on ignore,.

I'm sure me pointing out the fallacy of his rebuttal, won't inhibit him in crafting a wall of mental gymnastics, devoid of any actual substance as a response to you.
 
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#80,762
#80,762
McDad said:
China is basically immune AND would collapse if cut off from the US???? Did I read that as you intended?
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Maybe not immune, say mutual destruction. The U.S. has been doing the very limited sanctions but would never cut them off. (That would be reset)

I don't see anything difficult about this, seems like its well traveled road.
 
#80,763
#80,763
BeardedVol said:
Don't worry, he claims to have us on ignore,.

I'm sure me pointing out the fallacy of his rebuttal, won't inhibit him in crafting a wall of mental gymnastics, devoid of any actual substance as a response to you.
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From what I gather so far, independence and sovereignty has a lot to do with the ability to be self sufficient regardless of what other nations are doing.
 
#80,764
#80,764
McDad said:
From what I gather so far, independence and sovereignty has a lot to do with the ability to be self sufficient regardless of what other nations are doing.
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I think the psychobabble offered thus far is you’re sovereign if you can back it up with your own armed defense. And that’s actually a correct stance. It however completely dodges the accountability of the aggressor to your sovereignty which again lines up perfectly. Basically all he’s saying is Russia is attacking Ukraine because they can, or think they can, with impunity. He just won’t state it that succinctly
 
#80,765
#80,765
LSU-SIU said:
Maybe not immune, say mutual destruction. The U.S. has been doing the very limited sanctions but would never cut them off. (That would be reset)

I don't see anything difficult about this, seems like its well traveled road.
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mutual challenges from harder economic environments [I chose that instead of destruction] i understand much more clearly than "immune".

So, is any nation truly independent or can there be no such thing as true independence in our global economy? And if no independence is possible, then independence would be relative and graded against the standard of true independence?

Is that close?
 
#80,766
#80,766
NorthDallas40 said:
I think the psychobabble offered thus far is you’re sovereign if you can back it up with your own armed defense. And that’s actually a correct stance. It however completely dodges the accountability of the aggressor to your sovereignty which again lines up perfectly. Basically all he’s saying is Russia is attacking Ukraine because they can, or think they can, with impunity. He just won’t state it that succinctly
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I am going to withhold the "bottom line" until I can seek more understanding.

Is sovereignty dependent on a functioning military? Or is that only for protecting existing sovereignty? Or is one indistinguishable from the other.
 
#80,767
#80,767
McDad said:
I am going to withhold the "bottom line" until I can seek more understanding.

Is sovereignty dependent on a functioning military? Or is that only for protecting existing sovereignty? Or is one indistinguishable from the other.
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Oh I think sustained sovereignty absolutely requires access to somebodies standing military willing to defend your sovereignty be it your own or someone else’s

So you are sovereign… until someone claims you aren’t and actively tries to prove their point. That is what Russia is doing in Ukraine today they have publicly laid claims to Ukraine territory.
 
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#80,768
#80,768
McDad said:
mutual challenges from harder economic environments [I chose that instead of destruction] i understand much more clearly than "immune".

So, is any nation truly independent or can there be no such thing as true independence in our global economy? And if no independence is possible, then independence would be relative and graded against the standard of true independence?

Is that close?
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Well, there are probably a few tribes around on some islands that are independent and/or isolated still. Are they sovereign? I'm not sure they really care. I agree most of this is relative in nature. Most of these words are over used freedom, sovereignty, democracy, etc. Every country uses these terms.

Wars are fought over sovereignty, the winner is right. Countless countries, groups, nations, empires, etc use to exist... that simply don't today. If sovereignty was unchanging, that wouldn't be possible.
 
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#80,769
#80,769
McDad said:
From what I gather so far, independence and sovereignty has a lot to do with the ability to be self sufficient regardless of what other nations are doing.
Click to expand...

He's just repackaging the "great powers" diplomacy theory from the 19th century, and claiming that anyone with significant trading or security ties with the US is no longer "sovereign", but he can't reconcile the fact that countries like China, are just as beholden to US trade, and doesn't want to actually define what he believes makes a country "sovereign" because he can't reconcile China being dependent on US trade in his model.

His concepts are nonsensical on several levels, but it's never more apparent than when you take into consideration the modern global economy that all of the sovereign and "not sovereign" nations participate in.
 
#80,770
#80,770
LSU-SIU said:
You got me. There really isn't much to this war, it was predicted by the U.S. military 27+ years ago of the consequences, they did it anyway.... magic.

At the end of the day, we're probably at the point where all of the Ukraine will have to be destroyed.

All these guys appear mad at Russia, I have no idea why. It doesn't make sense to me. They keep on with all these buzzwords like sovereignty which makes no sense in the current context. The Ukrainians basically own nothing at this point. All the lies and getting mad by the internet warriors isn't going to change any of that. Once Russia invaded, it was always about how much they lose. My wild guess - EVERYTHING.
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except they didn't do "it" in Ukraine. Ukraine was no closer to being part of NATO in 2014, or 2022, than they were in 2008 when they were denied by France and Germany.

Putin's red line looks like a Biden "don't". NATO moved closer to Russia in 2023, Putin didn't even issue an official complaint. some red line fear mongering.
 
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#80,771
#80,771
LSU-SIU said:
Well, there are probably a few tribes around on some islands that are independent and/or isolated still. Are they sovereign? I'm not sure they really care. I agree most of this is relative in nature. Most of these words are over used freedom, sovereignty, democracy, etc. Every country uses these terms.

Wars are fought over sovereignty, the winner is right. Countless countries, groups, nations, empires, etc use to exist... that simply don't today. If sovereignty was unchanging, that wouldn't be possible.
Click to expand...
I have a better understanding of where you are coming from. I don't agree with your decision tree. No big deal...you don't need my agreement to be committed to your belief systems.

You asked how do I define sovereignty or independence.
- a fixed population
- defined borders
- a government with self determination.

I don't agree with ND40 that a military or capability of defense is part of the definition of independence. independence is inherent. I do agree with him that defending sovereignty may require a defense.
 
#80,772
#80,772
McDad said:
I have a better understanding of where you are coming from. I don't agree with your decision tree. No big deal...you don't need my agreement to be committed to your belief systems.

You asked how do I define sovereignty or independence.
- a fixed population
- defined borders
- a government with self determination.

I don't agree with ND40 that a military or capability of defense is part of the definition of independence. independence is inherent. I do agree with him that defending sovereignty may require a defense.
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To clarify… an active defense isn’t a part of being sovereign unless your sovereignty is threatened. Ukraine is sovereign today. In order to keep that sovereignty in tact at this point will require an active defense against the Russian invaders. Think about it as the pragmatic element required to guarantee you keep your sovereignty in tact that’s all

We declared ourselves sovereign in 1776. In order to maintain that declaration we had to fight and we won. In the mid 1800’s the south declared themselves sovereign. They had to fight to maintain it and they lost. They are now integrated into the United States of America just as before their sovereign declaration.
 
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#80,773
#80,773
NorthDallas40 said:
To clarify… an active defense isn’t a part of being sovereign unless your sovereignty is threatened. Ukraine is sovereign today. In order to keep that sovereignty in tact at this point will require an active defense against the Russian invaders. Think about it as the pragmatic element required to guarantee you keep your sovereignty in tact that’s all
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Much better for clarity. Thanks. And as much as it pains me to admit it, I think you're right.
 
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#80,775
#80,775
McDad said:
I have a better understanding of where you are coming from. I don't agree with your decision tree. No big deal...you don't need my agreement to be committed to your belief systems.

You asked how do I define sovereignty or independence.
- a fixed population
- defined borders
- a government with self determination.

I don't agree with ND40 that a military or capability of defense is part of the definition of independence. independence is inherent. I do agree with him that defending sovereignty may require a defense.
Click to expand...

That's the issue, relativity, opinion, etc. Let's take Hungry, are they sovereign? I mean, they have ceded a good portion of the government and self-determination to Brussels. And a good portion goes all the way back to the U.S. and the global financial system.
 
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