War in Ukraine

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GbhYw00aIAAdsvq
 
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@McDad from the 2024 election thread.

hog88 said:
Might as well discuss here.

My thoughts are simple. Putin cannot allow Ukraine to join NATO, that would be admitting defeat and the wasting of Russian lives and treasure for nothing so IMO an invitation to NATO just might push Russia to use weapons of mass destruction. How could he stay in power with such a defeat?

If Putin did use a nuke or biological/chemical weapon in Ukraine I think NATO would be compelled to join the war regardless of Ukrainian membership. NATO cannot allow the use of a WOMD on European soil to go unchallenged.
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@ McDad

Sure but they don't have to be extended an invitation nor does NATO have to accept them.

IMO the best course of action would be for the US to propose a treaty with Russia (actually put it in writing) saying Russia get out completely including Crimea and Ukraine will never be allowed to join NATO but will be under the protective umbrella if attacked. No NATO forces will enter of be stationed in Ukraine. Gives Putin a win he can sell to his people if he took the deal.
 
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hog88 said:
@ McDad

Sure but they don't have to be extended an invitation nor does NATO have to accept them.

IMO the best course of action would be for the US to propose a treaty with Russia (actually put it in writing) saying Russia get out completely including Crimea and Ukraine will never be allowed to join NATO but will be under the protective umbrella if attacked. No NATO forces will enter of be stationed in Ukraine. Gives Putin a win he can sell to his people if he took the deal.
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What I have trouble following is this:
Seems we agree Ukraine is autonomous. NATO is also autonomous as an organized group. Neither have a responsibility to placate Russia or Putin.

Do you agree with that foundational premise?
 
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McDad said:
What I have trouble following is this:
Seems we agree Ukraine is autonomous. NATO is also autonomous as an organized group. Neither have a responsibility to placate Russia or Putin.

Do you agree with that foundational premise?
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I do, however we are invested in Ukraine so I feel that we have a say in how this ends. NATO and the US are also backed into a corner, we can't allow Putin to take or keep any part of Ukraine without looking weak.
 
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hog88 said:
I do, however we are invested in Ukraine so I feel that we have a say in how this ends. NATO and the US are also backed into a corner, we can't allow Putin to take or keep any part of Ukraine without looking weak.
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Let me restate to make sure i grasp your post properly...
We have an investment and because of that, we have an influence on the decisions Ukraine makes within their sovereignty and autonomy. Close?
 
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hog88 said:
@ McDad

Sure but they don't have to be extended an invitation nor does NATO have to accept them.

IMO the best course of action would be for the US to propose a treaty with Russia (actually put it in writing) saying Russia get out completely including Crimea and Ukraine will never be allowed to join NATO but will be under the protective umbrella if attacked. No NATO forces will enter of be stationed in Ukraine. Gives Putin a win he can sell to his people if he took the deal.
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We already have a treaty with Russia concerning NATO membership.


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What makes you think he'd honor any treaty after being rewarded for breaking them?
 
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McDad said:
Let me restate to make sure i grasp your post properly...
We have an investment and because of that, we have an influence on the decisions Ukraine makes within their sovereignty and autonomy. Close?
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Yes and like a young adult child, they don't have to do as we say but we don't have to financially support them if they don't.
 
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hog88 said:
Yes and like a young adult child, they don't have to do as we say but we don't have to financially support them if they don't.
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Ok. We're still in agreement.

Expanding your analogy...if we financially supported an adult it doesn't necessarily mean we agree with their decisions or they are doing as we say.

How you feel about that?
 
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McDad said:
Ok. We're still in agreement.

Expanding your analogy...if we financially supported an adult it doesn't necessarily mean we agree with their decisions or they are doing as we say.

How you feel about that?
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Agreed. We don't have to agree with them or their actions.
 
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hog88 said:
Agreed. We don't have to agree with them or their actions.
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Ok. So it seems inconsistent to have agreement on all these points and also say we are [you alluded to something about war which started our discussion in the election thread but I cannot recall how you phrased it] responsible for russia putin aggresssion.
 
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McDad said:
Ok. So it seems inconsistent to have agreement on all these points and also say we are [you alluded to something about war which started our discussion in the election thread but I cannot recall how you phrased it] responsible for russia putin aggresssion.
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I'll simplify. If Ukraine is allowed to join NATO which they would do in a heartbeat if invited Putin would have to go all in to take/destroy them. My belief is that he would resort to using nukes/chemical weapons to do that, any use of nukes/chemical weapons would force NATO to respond militarily. So we would be at war.

Ukraine has the right as a sovereign nation to make it's own decisions and alliances but alliances are a two way street and teh US/NATO doesn't need to reciprocate.
 
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hog88 said:
I'll simplify. If Ukraine is allowed to join NATO which they would do in a heartbeat if invited Putin would have to go all in to take/destroy them. My belief is that he would resort to using nukes/chemical weapons to do that, any use of nukes/chemical weapons would force NATO to respond militarily. So we would be at war.

Ukraine has the right as a sovereign nation to make it's own decisions and alliances but alliances are a two way street and teh US/NATO doesn't need to reciprocate.
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I track with that except for one phrase. "putin would have to go all iin to take/destroy them".

He doesn't have to do anything...he would choose to go all in. Is that what your saying?
 
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