War in Ukraine

[volbound1700]

we didn't do the coup. Russia did when they bought off the pro-Western Yanukoyvch. its funny how you just overlook that part of the equation, and just want to act like Nuland's cookies were the one thing that drove Ukraine to protest.

Yanukoyvch was removed from power AFTER he fled to Russia, and was only removed from power by their parliament following their own laws. there was no coup to remove him. but there was one to buy him.

Don't bother arguing with the stupidity. The Ukrainian people have proven that wrong. Had their been a real coup like they cited, Ukrainians would not be so adamant about fighting Russia right now.

 

[LouderVol]

You talk about agency then describe how I just tell my adult sons not to go.

It's not uninformed to disagree with your opinions. To look at the entirety of us foreign policy and wonder why this was the time we decided to stay out of it. Just this time when our history is to always have a hand in the pot.

Ukraine is a us proxy war led by a greedy little us asset. Maybe the people of Ukraine should vote him out....

in your world that is a coup.

 

[utvolpj]

No they weren't. Ukraine was going to reject them all by themselves because the Russian terms went far beyond NATO membership.

Ukraine would have been totally demilitarized, and Russian forces would have occupied the country, and Russia was going to tell Ukraine who could and could not be in charge. Ukraine rejected real puppet hood.

Ukraine does not have the ability to unilaterally accept or reject.

 

[LouderVol]

Don't bother arguing with the stupidity. The Ukrainian people have proven that wrong. Had their been a real coup like they cited, Ukrainians would not be so adamant about fighting Russia right now.

it was definitely part of Russia's propaganda that had them taking over Kiev in 3 days. They really thought they were going to be welcomed as saviors. thankfully the country saw thru their lies and saw them as what they were, invaders who wanted to control Ukraine.

 

[utvolpj]

Don't bother arguing with the stupidity. The Ukrainian people have proven that wrong. Had their been a real coup like they cited, Ukrainians would not be so adamant about fighting Russia right now.

You literally just claimed the invasion of Iraq was justified and my post is stupidity? Make sure to buckle that chinstrap tight today

 

[volbound1700]

You talk about agency then describe how I just tell my adult sons not to go.

It's not uninformed to disagree with your opinions. To look at the entirety of us foreign policy and wonder why this was the time we decided to stay out of it. Just this time when our history is to always have a hand in the pot.

Ukraine is a us proxy war led by a greedy little us asset. Maybe the people of Ukraine should vote him out....

That is every nation ever though. That is because what happens around the globe impacts you whether you want to admit it or not.

Granted we have been worse about it since the end of WW2 because we took over the spot formerly held by the British Empire as world police. (Looking at history, UK pretty much did what USA is doing now from 1820s-1945).

 

[LouderVol]

Ukraine does not have the ability to unilaterally accept or reject.

lol, yes they do. and you can't prove otherwise.

 

[utvolpj]

lol, yes they do. and you can't prove otherwise.

Boris Johnson probably can

Do you truly believe Ukraine could go to the table with only Russia and completely end this? Even after the investment made in doing otherwise(

 

[volbound1700]

You literally just claimed the invasion of Iraq was justified and my post is stupidity? Make sure to buckle that chinstrap tight today

1991, Desert Storm, was totally justified. I said that I could see why USA did it in 2002 but I disagree with timing and said it shouldn't have happened.

I also stated Saddam was a force of instability in the Middle East (which was true).

I love how USA haters have to defend regimes like Putin, Saddam Hussein, Khadafi, the Taliban, etc. Sure, should the USA stay out of this stuff more often? Yes. However, it isn't like these players are angels. You don't see the USA going after nations that are peaceful.

Then again, you put words in my mouth because you just want to argue and don't bother reading my posts (or other posters you are responding to you). Classic example of narcist internet troll.

 

[volbound1700]

it was definitely part of Russia's propaganda that had them taking over Kiev in 3 days. They really thought they were going to be welcomed as saviors. thankfully the country saw thru their lies and saw them as what they were, invaders who wanted to control Ukraine.

I think Putin actually believe his own propaganda. It happens at times. We did the same with Iraq in 2003 where we thought the Iraq people would just welcome us and embrace USA democracy (similar situation with 1995 Somali, something no one has brought up on here yet and I am surprised).

 

[BeardedVol]

You talk about agency then describe how I just tell my adult sons not to go.

It's not uninformed to disagree with your opinions. To look at the entirety of us foreign policy and wonder why this was the time we decided to stay out of it. Just this time when our history is to always have a hand in the pot.

Ukraine is a us proxy war led by a greedy little us asset. Maybe the people of Ukraine should vote him out....

Lol did you not just type this "In a few years I'll have military age kids. Would I be ready to sacrifice them to the mic" ?

Were you unaware that we have an all-volunteer military, or are you afraid that the boogeyman MIC will somehow convince your kids to join up against your suggestions?

You're uninformed, because you literally base your belief that Ukraine has zero agency in their own affairs, on a mixture of Russian propaganda that you've willfully ingested, and your own fears about the "MIC" being this overarching power that can control anything in the world that it sees fit to do so.

You have no concept of the near or far history of Ukraine, and it's painfully obvious every time you post nonsense that is utterly divorced from reality because of your abject ignorance on the subject.

 

[LSU-SIU]

I think Putin actually believe his own propaganda. It happens at times. We did the same with Iraq in 2003 where we thought the Iraq people would just welcome us and embrace USA democracy (similar situation with 1995 Somali, something no one has brought up on here yet and I am surprised).

I was in Somali during that, for a few hours... I'm good. Its either one Bush or another Bush ****ing people up. (I was supporting that for like1-2 months outside of Somali for the most part)

 

[LouderVol]

Boris Johnson probably can

unless you actually read what both he and the Ukrainians said about the meeting.

Ukraine was going to reject Russia's proposal to take ownership of all of Ukraine. That is a completely logical stance that pretty much every single nation would take to the proposal Russia gave.

the west said IF you do fight, we can give more aid. What was Boris Johnson going to do if Ukraine didn't listen to him? Withhold the weapons Ukraine needed to fight the Russians? that doesn't even make sense, they wouldn't need the weapons, because Russia was going to be in control.

in order to show Boris Johnson had undue influence on the matter you need to show what leverage he used to get what he wanted. Unless you are going to argue that we were also threatening war, nothing we could have done would have been worse than war with Russia.

 

[BeardedVol]

I think Putin actually believe his own propaganda. It happens at times. We did the same with Iraq in 2003 where we thought the Iraq people would just welcome us and embrace USA democracy (similar situation with 1995 Somali, something no one has brought up on here yet and I am surprised).

He actually went as far as to arrest the head of the FSB intelligence service responsible for Ukraine ops.

Russian spy chiefs ‘under house arrest’ as Putin turns on his security chiefs over invasion setback

Source reveals that Russian intelligence “miscalculated” the resistance expected in Ukraine in the run-up to invasion

www.yahoo.com

 

[LouderVol]

Boris Johnson probably can

Do you truly believe Ukraine could go to the table with only Russia and completely end this? Even after the investment made in doing otherwise(

you added the second part after I quoted you:

yes they could. what are we going to do to stop them? Invade Ukraine from the west?

Russia invaded them, a few sanctions is nothing compared to that.

 

[volbound1700]

I was in Somali during that, for a few hours... I'm good. Its either one Bush or another Bush ****ing people up. (I was supporting that for like1-2 months outside of Somali for the most part)

Look, I am totally behind the idea of being more strategic and not getting involved in these wars. I totally do not like the escalation right now of the USA allowing Ukraine to bomb Russia territory. It was a morally wrong decision on our part.

However, I cannot go to the extreme that you do where USA is totally evil and its enemies are justified. In almost every instance, the countries the USA intervened in had brutal leaders that were being aggressive towards their own people and nations around them (as well as often to USA citizens and military personnel abroad). They are NOT innocent by any means.

I support Trump in scaling back our foreign interventionism. That being said, Putin is totally in the wrong for invading Ukraine.

I feel like I am between two extremes here. If you lay off your extremity, I would probably agree with every post you make. Heck Ras got so extreme that he even questioned the USA fighting Japan and Germany in the 1940s. Some wars have to be fought sometime and life is ugly sometimes.

 

[utvolpj]

1991, Desert Storm, was totally justified. I said that I could see why USA did it in 2002 but I disagree with timing and said it shouldn't have happened.

I also stated Saddam was a force of instability in the Middle East (which was true).

I love how USA haters have to defend regimes like Putin, Saddam Hussein, Khadafi, the Taliban, etc. Sure, should the USA stay out of this stuff more often? Yes. However, it isn't like these players are angels. You don't see the USA going after nations that are peaceful.

Then again, you put words in my mouth because you just want to argue and don't bother reading my posts (or other posters you are responding to you). Classic example of narcist internet troll.

First gulf war is debatable but the second was absolutely criminal. Us actions completely destroyed countries like Iraq and Libya. They're in worse shape than they were under dictators! They reinstituted slavery and slave markets after us actions.

 

[utvolpj]

you added the second part after I quoted you:

yes they could. what are we going to do to stop them? Invade Ukraine from the west?

Russia invaded them, a few sanctions is nothing compared to that.

Cut off money. They need to rebuild

 

[volbound1700]

First gulf war is debatable but the second was absolutely criminal. Us actions completely destroyed countries like Iraq and Libya. They're in worse shape than they were under dictators! They reinstituted slavery and slave markets after us actions.

Libya was not US-led. We consented to it but we were not the major player there. It was French led.

Iraq is better off in that Kurds aren't being slaughtered and they are not invading neighboring nations but the rebuild was totally a failure, I agree. A lot of the problem is Islamic culture which has been an aggressive, brutal system since 600 A.D. Had the Byzantines and Sassanids kicked their butt, we may not be having this conversation today (granted, USA may not have ever come about in that scenario).

First Gulf War was not debatable by anyone at that time. Nearly ever nation on Earth supported the intervention including most the Middle East.

 

[utvolpj]

Lol did you not just type this "In a few years I'll have military age kids. Would I be ready to sacrifice them to the mic" ?

Were you unaware that we have an all-volunteer military, or are you afraid that the boogeyman MIC will somehow convince your kids to join up against your suggestions?

You're uninformed, because you literally base your belief that Ukraine has zero agency in their own affairs, on a mixture of Russian propaganda that you've willfully ingested, and your own fears about the "MIC" being this overarching power that can control anything in the world that it sees fit to do so.

You have no concept of the near or far history of Ukraine, and it's painfully obvious every time you post nonsense that is utterly divorced from reality because of your abject ignorance on the subject.

You disagree so you hurl insults. You're so entrenched that you can't even see where your arguments possibly fail and your ego takes over. You are 100% convinced you're right and nothing can change that. But of course I'm the ignorant one

 

[LouderVol]

Cut off money. They need to rebuild

they need to rebuild in 2024+, in 2022 that was the start of the Russian invasion, not much to rebuild.

are you seriously arguing that cutting off their money flow is going to override the threat of death and destruction? That is completely illogical. Russia was promising way way worse than we were, but we somehow twisted their arm with the weaker threat? GTFO.

 

[volbound1700]

Cut off money. They need to rebuild

This is where I can align. The USA cannot afford to help Ukraine like we are right now. When you are $ 23 Trillion in debt, you need to realize that the debt is now your greatest NATIONAL SECURITY threat as it is destroying our economy and by connection, our defense industry.

What won us WW2 was our strong industrial output.

 

[LSU-SIU]

However, I cannot go to the extreme that you do where USA is totally evil and its enemies are justified. In almost every instance, the countries the USA intervened in had brutal leaders that were being aggressive towards their own people and nations around them (as well as often to USA citizens and military personnel abroad). They are NOT innocent by any means.

Understand.

I don't think everything is evil the U.S. has done, most of it has came about on purpose though.... and for some reason Americans think everything is their business and they don't see the evil in that. Generally speaking RFK Jr. and Tulsi are correction, the U.S. is basically ran by neocons that profit from all this.

Generally speaking, about 90% (throwing a number out there) of what the U.S. has been involved militarily not only wasn't needed and failed, but was more or less orchestrated in part to happen. Its hard to separate the government from the evil actors, and at some point become one and the same.

The Ukraine was setup to fail, the setup starting in the 90s. The end result probably won't change much here, I hope Georgia continues to look after itself because they have been targeted to be eliminated next.

P.S. YOu can go back and read my posts of what the Bush family and Neocons were doing in the 80s, which I have lots of first hand knowledge. Americans just don't want to know.

 

[BeardedVol]

You disagree so you hurl insults. You're so entrenched that you can't even see where your arguments fail and your ego takes over. You are 100% convinced you're right and nothing can change that. But of course I'm the ignorant one

I'm sorry if pointing out your willful ignorance was hurtful.

 

[utvolpj]

Libya was not US-led. We consented to it but we were not the major player there. It was French led.

Iraq is better off in that Kurds aren't being slaughtered and they are not invading neighboring nations but the rebuild was totally a failure, I agree. A lot of the problem is Islamic culture which has been an aggressive, brutal system since 600 A.D. Had the Byzantines and Sassanids kicked their butt, we may not be having this conversation today (granted, USA may not have ever come about in that scenario).

First Gulf War was not debatable by anyone at that time. Nearly ever nation on Earth supported the intervention including most the Middle East.

The us was absolutely a leader to remove gaddafi. He threatened the petrodollar. Iraq as a country is in no way better off than pre-invasion. It's a trash heap

First Gulf War was a result of Kuwait and the us doing shady oil things to sabotage Iraq. As with almost all us military ops it was unnecessary