War in Ukraine

[LSU-SIU]

Let me go through each of these as they are different scenarios:

1. Afghanistan was justified and everyone in the world agreed including China and Russia. We were attacked by Al Quada who Afghanistan was harboring and aiding. This invasion has never been challenged by anyone with legitimacy.

2. Yugoslavia - This was a NATO action so not just USA. We did not invade, only bombed. I do think this was questionable but it was voted on by UN. It was effectively the same as UN peace keepers. However, I can agree this one was questionable. It was not necessarily USA-led

3. Libya - This was led by France, we actually had very little involvement. This one is very questionable

4. Iraq - We invaded twice so I am not sure which one you are talking about. The first one was to liberate Kuwait and was universally accepted by the Globe. Russia even supported the USA. The second one was questionable and has been questioned to this very day. It was based on WMDs that were somewhat found but problematic. Saddam was a problem for ME and had invaded 2 neighbors (Iran and Kuwait) and attacked another (Israel) without provocation. He also threatened Saudi Arabia and exterminated Kurdish people. Saddam had to go.

On the last note, I work and talk to people every day from across the globe. The USA is not as hated as people like you made out. Sure they are hated by pariah nations like North Korea, Iran, Venezuela, and Russia. Frankly nations that if they didn't exist, the world would be a BETTER PLACE. Nations like Iran and North Korea cause more suffering to humanity than bring value.

1. Whether China and Russia agree is not material, and you killed many innocent people and left people they claimed were friends to die. As I said nobody has to justify anything.

2. The US is a part of NATO, and yes American bombed people and I have no idea why even asking commanders. As I said nobody has to justify anything.... again 1000s of miles from the US.

3. The CIA was already involved including Hillary Clinton, the US helped overthrow a foreign government.... again no justification is required as I said.

4. The second one was not questionable, no justification is needed... matter of fact it was actually based on known lies. Of course, Saddam had to go... because you say so.... no justification is required.

You are the one invading countries, you are the one abandoning countries, you are the one funding countless people getting killed doing who knows what, actually your tax money went to the U.S. purposing murdering Americans. NO JUSTIFICATION IS REQUIRED.

The USA is not as hated as people like you made out.

I don't think you have traveled.

 

[volbound1700]

I can't vote, I didn't support either candidate in this election. I detest both political parties and politicians in general.

I don't trust our MIC or politicians, likewise I don't trust their counterparts in Russia, China, Europe and elsewhere.

You discredit yourself when you parrot Russian propaganda on this issue, whether you realize it or not it comes off as personal to you. I've been trying to figure out why. You keep bringing up Trump and I've been wondering if that's the angle.

You always seem to come back to the congressional report on record but I trust that as much as I trust our government today. You can't say I distrust our MIC and government then use a paper report influenced and authored by the same entities as gospel truth. I find the logic there problematic at best.

100%. If LSU just stuck with the fact the USA has no business in this war, I would be totally behind him.

However, he has to defend Putin like Russia can do no wrong and attack USA like we can do no right. That is an extreme position.

 

[BeardedVol]

Others have said it did and gorby has been inconsistent. He's now clarifying Bakers words?

I know what I've heard and read. This is typical us policy playing out from the useless promises, coups, provocation pushed by the mic.

Without wikileaks we wouldn't even know that Ukraine to nato had been addressed in that way by Russia. To fully rely on what you do is a bit naive. But I guess it makes you feel right and that's the important thing

Lol, so "others" carry more weight than the head of the USSR who participated in the negotiations?

Robert Zoellick participated in the negations, and has confirmed the context of Baker's statements.

‘There was no promise not to enlarge NATO’ - Harvard Law School

Robert Zoellick, the U.S. diplomat who helped negotiate the end of the Cold War, says Vladimir Putin’s claims about Ukraine are part of a disinformation campaign.

hls.harvard.edu

But hey, you tell yourself whatever you need to in order to maintain the narrative in your head about the boogeyman MIC.

 

[volbound1700]

1. Whether China and Russia agree is not material, and you killed many innocent people and left people they claimed were friends to die. As I said nobody has to justify anything.

2. The US is a part of NATO, and yes American bombed people and I have no idea why even asking commanders. As I said nobody has to justify anything.... again 1000s of miles from the US.

3. The CIA was already involved including Hillary Clinton, the US helped overthrow a foreign government.... again no justification is required as I said.

4. The second one was not questionable, no justification is needed... matter of fact it was actually based on known lies. Of course, Saddam had to go... because you say so.... no justification is required.



I don't think you have traveled.

Saddam attacked 2 Sovereign nations (Iran and Kuwait) and engaged in Genocide. He was a destabilizing force in the Middle East. W Bush was wrong to do it when he did it but to say that Saddam shouldn't have gone is just wrong. There was justification. We should have done it in 1991. When we did it was the problem as we had no justification in 2003 other than "war on terror".

 

[KB5252]

If it was flat out rejected why was it so important to point out? Why the need for regime change? This has been in the works for decades. It's like believing the gaza issue started last October

I believe Russia was afraid of losing complete influence over Ukraine. I think the NATO angle is pointless because Russia wouldn't allow Ukraine to be sovereign. Russia felt they would lose unfettered access and control of it's warm water ports.

NATO in Ukraine was what Russia used to sell it's need for military action at home. That's an easier sell than I want the ports.

 

[LSU-SIU]

You always seem to come back to the congressional report on record but I trust that as much as I trust our government today. You can't say I distrust our MIC and government then use a paper report influenced and authored by the same entities as gospel truth. I find the logic there problematic at best.

But that is exactly what you appear to be doing. The record shows that they were aware of the issue, and the result basically happened as the U.S. military more or less predicted.

It has nothing to trust, it has to do with its a record of why they thought would happen..... THEY WERE RIGHT.

Its like someone saying the powerball is a scam, they than tell you what this week's powerball number is going to be..... then.... their powerball number comes up.

You can't rewrite it.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Saddam attacked 2 Sovereign nations (Iran and Kuwait) and engaged in Genocide. He was a destabilizing force in the Middle East. W Bush was wrong to do it when he did it but to say that Saddam shouldn't have gone is just wrong. There was justification. We should have done it in 1991. When we did it was the problem as we had no justification in 2003 other than "war on terror".

So?

You don't need justification which is why the U.S. is everywhere and why they are in Syria and Iraq right now.

Justification has nothing to do with anything, Russia's justification... you're Nazi, you're trying to join Nato, and you're bombing people. So what?

 

[BeardedVol]

They are vastly different. One example is religion. USSR hated and persecuted the Russia Orthodox church while Putin's regime embraces it.

The modern Russian Federation has more in common with Czarist Russia, IMO, than the USSR. To be frank, even the USSR drastically changed over time. The initially Lenin ran USSR was very different than Stalin's USSR. Most of USSR history was impacted by Stalin and his predecessors. Once that generation started dying off, USSR started to change drastically.

Lol, the USSR used the orthodox church throughout the cold war. The current head of the Russian orthodox church, is himself, a former KGB agent.

Patriarch Kirill worked for the KGB in the 1970s, Swiss media reports

Russian Orthodox Patriarch Kirill, a close supporter of Russian President Vladimir Putin, worked for the Russian intelligence service in Switzerland in the 1970s, according to two Swiss newspapers, citing declassified archives.

www.euronews.com

Like I said, they replaced the façade of communism for an open oligarchy of crony capitalism. It works out well for them, because they don't have to maintain the veneer of adherence to an ideology, but their goals didn't change.

 

[LouderVol]

They are 2 separate things but both show that this was in play way before 2022. The red line for Ukraine wasn't mentioned until 2008 from Burns. He's still in the current admin and should have known better. The us policy in that crooked country had been driving to this. Hopefully the half million Ukrainian lives were worth it

but after 2008 what line did NATO/Ukraine cross to tick off Russia? they aren't part of NATO. and the 2022 talks can't justify Russia's invasion in 2014.

 

[volbound1700]

Lol, the USSR used the orthodox church throughout the cold war. The current head of the Russian orthodox church, is himself, a former KGB agent.

Patriarch Kirill worked for the KGB in the 1970s, Swiss media reports

Russian Orthodox Patriarch Kirill, a close supporter of Russian President Vladimir Putin, worked for the Russian intelligence service in Switzerland in the 1970s, according to two Swiss newspapers, citing declassified archives.

www.euronews.com

Like I said, they replaced the façade of communism for an open oligarchy of crony capitalism. It works out well for them, because they don't have to maintain the veneer of adherence to an ideology, but their goals didn't change.

I consider modern Russia to be more in line with Fascism (especially that seen in Italy vs Germany 1930s). It is different from the USSR and we cannot compare USSR actions with Russian actions.

Russia did try to throw us an olive branch by supporting USA in 1991 invasion of Iraq, 2001 invasion of Afghanistan, and other War on Terror activities. They had also backed away from the cold war stance under Gorbachev.

Putin has taken them back to the extreme and has engaged in non-justified invasions of Georgia and Ukraine. Provoking Nuclear War.

 

[LouderVol]

Nobody has to justify anything, which is why the U.S. invaded Afghanistan, bombed Yugoslavia, invaded and overthrew the government of Libya (basically political assignation), are invaders in Syria, at this point invaders of Iraqi, etc.

Going to war is tough, I have never said otherwise. But let's put it in perspective, the U.S. risked not only war with Cuba but nuclear war with the USSR for stuff that was similar.

At the end of the day, I don't think any of this is my business.... not really. As an American, I'm at least bright enough to understand why people hate us in the world.

what have we done in Ukraine that comes close to giving Cuba nuclear missiles?

 

[LSU-SIU]

I consider modern Russia to be more in line with Fascism (especially that seen in Italy vs Germany 1930s). It is different from the USSR and we cannot compare USSR actions with Russian actions.

Russia did try to throw us an olive branch by supporting USA in 1991 invasion of Iraq, 2001 invasion of Afghanistan, and other War on Terror activities. They had also backed away from the cold war stance under Gorbachev.

Putin has taken them back to the extreme and has engaged in non-justified invasions of Georgia and Ukraine. Provoking Nuclear War.

Well, that is not what the U.S. military thought and Putin wasn't even a thing.

The U.S. military pointed out the flawed logic, they told everyone of the consequences... the neocons ran the train right down the broken track anyway.

 

[volbound1700]

So?

You don't need justification which is why the U.S. is everywhere and why they are in Syria and Iraq right now.

Justification has nothing to do with anything, Russia's justification... you're Nazi, you're trying to join Nato, and you're bombing people. So what?

Iraq had attacked USA interests and was even attacking US planes up until both invasions.

Give me one example of Ukrainian hostility towards Russia prior to Russia invading. Just one. Give me a military action where Ukraine threatened Russia.

In nearly every instance of USA action (whether 100% justified or not), there was an aggression against US citizens or military personnel by said nation. Only exceptions were Yugoslavia and possibly Syria. I can agree with you on those two. Even Libya attacked USA in the 1980s and was arming terrorists.

 

[volbound1700]

Well, that is not what the U.S. military thought and Putin wasn't even a thing.

You notice it is Putin, not the USA or European leaders, that is threatening to use Nuclear Weapons.

 

[utvolpj]

I believe Russia was afraid of losing complete influence over Ukraine. I think the NATO angle is pointless because Russia wouldn't allow Ukraine to be sovereign. Russia felt they would lose unfettered access and control of it's warm water ports.

NATO in Ukraine was what Russia used to sell it's need for military action at home. That's an easier sell than I want the ports.

So why not sign the doc that says they'll never be in nato and just end this? Why must nato constantly and publicly repeat their support for Ukraine must continue?

are you claiming Russia was setting this up in 2008 when they told this to Burns? That they would never allow it anyways? Why would we push it so hard if we knew they wanted the country?

 

[LSU-SIU]

Iraq had attacked USA interests and was even attacking US planes up until both invasions.

Give me one example of Ukrainian hostility towards Russia prior to Russia invading. Just one. Give me a military action where Ukraine threatened Russia.

In nearly every instance of USA action (whether 100% justified or not), there was an aggression against US citizens or military personnel by said nation. Only exceptions were Yugoslavia and possibly Syria. I can agree with you on those two. Even Libya attacked USA in the 1980s and was arming terrorists.

That isn't matter, because by the time the join NATO it would be too late to avoid nuclear war. See Congressional Record. Jesus, you can tell me I am wrong but I'm not the one that said it.... your own government said it.

 

[LSU-SIU]

You notice it is Putin, not the USA or European leaders, that is threatening to use Nuclear Weapons.

This was predicted by the U.S. military in the 90s, please read Congressional Record already posted. Your own government said why are we doing this, it makes no sense, and this will be the result.

So, the U.S. military outed the NeoCons, said we don't need more military funding for Europe, what you are doing to Russia is most likely going to backfire and cause war.... and by the way... they have the best tactical nuclear weapons in the world.

THEY WERE RIGHT.

 

[LouderVol]

If it was flat out rejected why was it so important to point out? Why the need for regime change? This has been in the works for decades. It's like believing the gaza issue started last October

which one?

the one where the Russians bought the pro-Western Yanukoych?
or the one where the Ukrainians kicked out the bought Yanukoych when he went back on his promises to be pro-western?

 

[utvolpj]

but after 2008 what line did NATO/Ukraine cross to tick off Russia? they aren't part of NATO. and the 2022 talks can't justify Russia's invasion in 2014.

What did the us assist with in Ukraine in 2014?

 

[utvolpj]

which one?

the one where the Russians bought the pro-Western Yanukoych?
or the one where the Ukrainians kicked out the bought Yanukoych when he went back on his promises to be pro-western?

Who kicked him out? Hmmm

 

[KB5252]

But that is exactly what you appear to be doing. The record shows that they were aware of the issue, and the result basically happened as the U.S. military more or less predicted.

It has nothing to trust, it has to do with its a record of why they thought would happen..... THEY WERE RIGHT.

Its like someone saying the powerball is a scam, they than tell you what this week's powerball number is going to be..... then.... their powerball number comes up.

You can't rewrite it.

That may very well be true, the logic in trusting information from the very people you distrust is problematic however.

And the parroting of Russian propaganda is where you lose me and many others. The drug addict, the comedian is taken word for word from Russian state run propagandists. I believe and trust them as much as I believe and trust our networks.

 

[LSU-SIU]

That may very well be true, the logic in trusting information from the very people you distrust is problematic however.

And the parroting of Russian propaganda is where you lose me and many others. The drug addict, the comedian is taken word for word from Russian state run propagandists. I believe and trust them as much as I believe and trust our networks.

I am not losing you, you are already lost. Nobody is posting Russian Propaganda, that is the same thing as Orange Man Bad... idiotic. Not much I can do for you. But you can keep going around thinking you're the good guy.

 

[LouderVol]

So why not sign the doc that says they'll never be in nato and just end this? Why must nato constantly and publicly repeat their support for Ukraine must continue?

are you claiming Russia was setting this up in 2008 when they told this to Burns? That they would never allow it anyways? Why would we push it so hard if we knew they wanted the country?

we haven't pushed Ukraine joining NATO, until 2022.

there was no document that says they'll never be in NATO. how do you sign something that never existed? You act like Putin gave some document to sign about no expansion into Ukraine, and when that didn't happen Putin was forced to invade because......we still hadn't invited Ukraine to join NATO?

 

[LouderVol]

What did the us assist with in Ukraine in 2014?

Nothing much at all. I think we gave them some non-military aid after Russia invaded.

 

[LouderVol]

Who kicked him out? Hmmm

the Ukrainian people that voted for him and then were betrayed by him. It wasn't a bunch of US agents getting shot at Maiden.