War in Ukraine

#82,451
#82,451
utvolpj said:
So why not sign the doc that says they'll never be in nato and just end this? Why must nato constantly and publicly repeat their support for Ukraine must continue?

are you claiming Russia was setting this up in 2008 when they told this to Burns? That they would never allow it anyways? Why would we push it so hard if we knew they wanted the country?
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Because that's what our MIC, wanted influence in the region, a friend with the warm water ports there.

And that's why Russia wouldn't let it happen. The NATO angle is a herring. Russia's red line was much more simplistic but much more important to them..... The ports in Ukraine.
 
#82,452
#82,452
KB5252 said:
Because that's what our MIC, wanted influence in the region, a friend with the warm water ports there.

And that's why Russia wouldn't let it happen. The NATO angle is a herring. Russia's red line was much more simplistic but much more important to them..... The ports in Ukraine.
Click to expand...

There would be no reason for Russia to be open to talks. What you are posting is completely idiotic. Poland doesn't even want that or their people.
 
#82,453
#82,453
utvolpj said:
So why not sign the doc that says they'll never be in nato and just end this? Why must nato constantly and publicly repeat their support for Ukraine must continue?

are you claiming Russia was setting this up in 2008 when they told this to Burns? That they would never allow it anyways? Why would we push it so hard if we knew they wanted the country?
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Because as it has been pointed out numerous times to you: Russia invading Ukraine was never about NATO.

Ukraine was neutral in 2014. Russia still invaded Crimea and the eastern part of the country.

Even after Russia invaded in 2014, Ukraine's NATO prospects were still literally zero. They weren't given a MAP, and Germany and France were still both hard "no" on them joining.
newsukraine.rbc.ua

Merkel explains opposition to Ukraine joining NATO in 2008

Read more
newsukraine.rbc.ua newsukraine.rbc.ua
 
#82,454
#82,454
LSU-SIU said:
I am not losing you, you are already lost. Nobody is posting Russian Propaganda, that is the same thing as Orange Man Bad... idiotic. Not much I can do for you. But you can keep going around thinking you're the good guy.
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The comedian, the drug addict etc is also the same as Orange Man bad isn't it......I agree, it's idiotic.
 
#82,455
#82,455
KB5252 said:
The comedian, the drug addict etc is also the same as Orange Man bad isn't it......I agree, it's idiotic.
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The problem is, I specify exactly why I say those things. You are leaving out that part.

Most recent I asked you whether they need my funds or not, one day he says he doesn't need them.... the next day he says they lose without them.
 
#82,456
#82,456
KB5252 said:
Because that's what our MIC, wanted influence in the region, a friend with the warm water ports there.

And that's why Russia wouldn't let it happen. The NATO angle is a herring. Russia's red line was much more simplistic but much more important to them..... The ports in Ukraine.
Click to expand...
Where has that been stated? The us amb to Russia reported the red line was NATO. Are you saying he was severely mistaken?
 
#82,457
#82,457
LSU-SIU said:
There would be no reason for Russia to be open to talks. What you are posting is completely idiotic. Poland doesn't even want that or their people.
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You make zero sense. Russia open to talks about what? Be specific. I'm sure it makes sense to you but you're speaking in half sentences and incomplete thoughts.
 
#82,459
#82,459
KB5252 said:
You make zero sense. Russia open to talks about what? Be specific. I'm sure it makes sense to you but you're speaking in half sentences and incomplete thoughts.
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Nobody has to spell it out, Russia was down at the table with the Ukraine and then the U.S. got involved. They have also been willing to sit down.... if they want all of the Ukraine, there would be no reason to even talk.
 
#82,460
#82,460
LouderVol said:
we haven't pushed Ukraine joining NATO, until 2022.

there was no document that says they'll never be in NATO. how do you sign something that never existed? You act like Putin gave some document to sign about no expansion into Ukraine, and when that didn't happen Putin was forced to invade because......we still hadn't invited Ukraine to join NATO?
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There have been offers that were sabotaged and rejected by the west. Ukraine is a puppet and an entire generation of their people are being wasted.

In a few years I'll have military age kids. Would I be ready to sacrifice them to the mic because adults refuse to talk to each other?
 
#82,463
#82,463
utvolpj said:
What did the us assist with in Ukraine in 2014?
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We didn't give Ukraine any significant military aid until 2014, and then from 2014-2022 we gave them ~$2.5 billion in military aid over the entire 8 year period, mostly in the realm of small arms, training, and some javelins.
1732203091051.png
www.whitehouse.gov

Joint Statement on the U.S.-Ukraine Strategic Partnership | The White House

Thirty years after the restoration of Ukraine’s independence, the bonds between the United States and Ukraine are stronger than ever. Our shared
www.whitehouse.gov www.whitehouse.gov

It wasn't until Putin escalated the invasion that the US and EU started giving significant amounts of military equipment to Ukraine.
 
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#82,465
#82,465
BeardedVol said:
We didn't give Ukraine any significant military aid until 2014, and then from 2014-2022 we gave them ~$2.5 billion in military aid over the entire 8 year period, mostly in the realm of small arms, training, and some javelins.
View attachment 699369
www.whitehouse.gov

Joint Statement on the U.S.-Ukraine Strategic Partnership | The White House

Thirty years after the restoration of Ukraine’s independence, the bonds between the United States and Ukraine are stronger than ever. Our shared
www.whitehouse.gov www.whitehouse.gov

It wasn't until Putin escalated the invasion that the US and EU started giving significant amounts of military equipment to Ukraine.
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You failed to list the cia. Not everything is on paper
 
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#82,466
#82,466
utvolpj said:
There have been offers that were sabotaged and rejected by the west. Ukraine is a puppet and an entire generation of their people are being wasted.

In a few years I'll have military age kids. Would I be ready to sacrifice them to the mic because adults refuse to talk to each other?
Click to expand...

You have some of the most uninformed takes on this board. Your entire outlook that Ukraine has zero agency in their own affairs, and that the US forced them to reject Russia's attempt to turn them into another Belarus is just bizarre to say the least.

We have an all-volunteer military, so if you don't want your kids to serve in the military, then just tell them not to join; it's really that simple.
 
#82,468
#82,468
utvolpj said:
Where has that been stated? The us amb to Russia reported the red line was NATO. Are you saying he was severely mistaken?
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I believe Russia needs influence over warm water ports. I believe that while NATO is the red line..... All out war with NATO........ the fight was initiated with Ukraine as a deterrent to the US and Ukraine and to maintain it's control over the ports.

If Ukraine goes NATO I believe it's all out war.

It's why they consolidated their forces where they did and prosecuted the war as they did when they realized Ukraine wouldn't initially capitulate and pulled back their assault in North and Central Ukraine.

Where they attacked and held ground tells you all you need to know about what they really valued.
 
#82,469
#82,469
utvolpj said:
There have been offers that were sabotaged and rejected by the west. Ukraine is a puppet and an entire generation of their people are being wasted.

In a few years I'll have military age kids. Would I be ready to sacrifice them to the mic because adults refuse to talk to each other?
Click to expand...
No they weren't. Ukraine was going to reject them all by themselves because the Russian terms went far beyond NATO membership.

Ukraine would have been totally demilitarized, and Russian forces would have occupied the country, and Russia was going to tell Ukraine who could and could not be in charge. Ukraine rejected real puppet hood.
 
#82,470
#82,470
LSU-SIU said:
Nobody has to spell it out, Russia was down at the table with the Ukraine and then the U.S. got involved. They have also been willing to sit down.... if they want all of the Ukraine, there would be no reason to even talk.
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I never said they wanted all of Ukraine though.... I've said exactly the opposite.
 
#82,473
#82,473
utvolpj said:
Answer: a coup
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we didn't do the coup. Russia did when they bought off the pro-Western Yanukoyvch. its funny how you just overlook that part of the equation, and just want to act like Nuland's cookies were the one thing that drove Ukraine to protest.

Yanukoyvch was removed from power AFTER he fled to Russia, and was only removed from power by their parliament following their own laws. there was no coup to remove him. but there was one to buy him.
 
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#82,474
#82,474
BeardedVol said:
You have some of the most uninformed takes on this board. Your entire outlook that Ukraine has zero agency in their own affairs, and that the US forced them to reject Russia's attempt to turn them into another Belarus is just bizarre to say the least.

We have an all-volunteer military, so if you don't want your kids to serve in the military, then just tell them not to join; it's really that simple.
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You talk about agency then describe how I just tell my adult sons not to go.

It's not uninformed to disagree with your opinions. To look at the entirety of us foreign policy and wonder why this was the time we decided to stay out of it. Just this time when our history is to always have a hand in the pot.

Ukraine is a us proxy war led by a greedy little us asset. Maybe the people of Ukraine should vote him out....
 
#82,475
#82,475
KB5252 said:
I never said they wanted all of Ukraine though.... I've said exactly the opposite.
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Their would be no reason to sit down at a table in 2024 let alone 2022 if that were the case on any of it.

This is why Russia floated the Poland annex and I said in 2022 most likely all of the Ukraine would have to go. I'm not that lucky and I am not that good... yet.... here were are... .the obvious.
 
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