War in Ukraine

#83,526
#83,526
Orange. said:
We need to examine the logic of the “Russian propaganda” argument. It wants to say and does say that if some opinion or fact x appears or has been alleged to ever have appeared in a Russian publication, that is prima facia evidence that x is false and also traitorous. And furthermore that the Russian publication is the only possible way that one might ever arrive at x.

A says x. But B once said x. Therefore A is lying.

This is not a valid argument.

It’s a completely illogical smear job and misinformation tool. If that is not immediately clear to someone, that is the use of examples. And keep in mind that the people who use this astoundingly illogical argument are employing it as a universal “truth” or tool. They apply it to anything and everything, as convenient. So a single counterexample shows the “Russian propaganda” argument to invalid.

Example 1. Russia Today said Obama was elected in 2008. Therefore Obama was not elected in 2008. Saying or believing that “Obama was elected in 2008” is spreading “Russian disinformation.”

Example 2. Russian Pravda said that an American spy plane was shot down over Russian territory during the Eisenhower administration. Therefore that is by definition false. Saying or believing that a spy plane was shot down (regardless of how the speaker arrived at his or her opinion) proves that the speaker is “spreading Russian propaganda.”

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Bonus from “power users” of the bad argument: Everyone who says x “must be a foreign national.”

President Eisenhower must be a foreign national. 😂
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the issue is that the Russia apologists use the exact same logic in their arguments. because the MSM said it once, it must be false.

the Moskva was a great example of this. some pro-Ukrainian MSM broke the story of the Moskva being hit, the Russians immediately denied it, and kept denying it. for proof the russians used a video they took out of context. The media had shown a Russian ship on fire, the actual media people never claimed it was a current video, or even of the Moskva. but the Russian stooges had their "gotcha" clip of Ukrainian media talking about the Moskva while showing a video that wasn't the Moskva, ergo the Moskva was fine and it was all just misinformation. Several nicotine based theories later, even the Russians had to admit the Moskva was indeed having troubles. but never recanted their stance on the MSM lying.

its rampant on both sides. its been used multiple times in this thread "in war, truth is the first casualty".
 
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#83,527
#83,527
LouderVol said:
its our business because we signed a piece of paper saying we agreed to it being our business.

I don't like that we signed it, and I don't like the terms on that piece of paper. but we signed it.

we aren't going to have ANY business if we can't keep our word that we signed onto.
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Which is the main reason that right now I’m completely cringing at the fact that we are locking out all of Europe and Ukraine in these initial talks. It looks to me like we’re gonna do it again. I’d much rather we let Trump be Trump and very publicly say EU and Ukraine get this ended or we will go end it ourselves. Use his best ability, bluster.
 
#83,528
#83,528
LSU-SIU said:
Its not our business if we say its not our business. Nobody offered security guarantees to the Ukraine which is why you don't have U.S. military there which is what the Russians would have had issue with. Once we undermined the Ukraine and used it for proxy, I would think any of those terms would be moot anyway.
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Russia undermined Ukraine worse, and broke the actual terms, before we used Ukraine as a proxy.

you keep using things that happened later, as justification for what happened first.
 
#83,529
#83,529
NorthDallas40 said:
Which is the main reason that right now I’m completely cringing at the fact that we are locking out all of Europe and Ukraine in these initial talks. It looks to me like we’re gonna do it again. I’d much rather we let Trump be Trump and very publicly say EU and Ukraine get this ended or we will go end it ourselves. Use his best ability, bluster.
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I would rather just wash our hands of it, than say we will end anything ourselves.

definitely can't butt out Ukraine. Russia is going to be able to use whatever piece of paper comes out of the current US & Russia talks and point out that Ukraine isn't actually part of it, and use it as pretext to continue the war.
 
#83,530
#83,530
LouderVol said:
Russia undermined Ukraine worse, and broke the actual terms, before we used Ukraine as a proxy.

you keep using things that happened later, as justification for what happened first.
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That is immaterial to discussion meaning we were undermining the Ukraine, who is doing what worse is immaterial because the Ukraine isn't our friend. The U.S. effective already withdrew from the agreement which is an agreement to do nothing... why... it didn't work in good faith.

No, its none of my business. From Trump's POV it is the U.S.'s business, meaning get our money back and ROI.

I told everyone it probably wouldn't turn out well for the Ukraine and why, I didn't say exactly every detail but the Ukraine was never a sovereign country and we were never their friends.

I'm not sure what you want to hear, the neocons set this one beautifully. Not much can be done other than on the edges.

THE LIE IS, we were never ever not...even close to it to being their friends. THAT IS THE LIE. The Ukraine is the toilet the world has decided to all take a crap in.
 
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#83,531
#83,531
LouderVol said:
I would rather just wash our hands of it, than say we will end anything ourselves.

definitely can't butt out Ukraine. Russia is going to be able to use whatever piece of paper comes out of the current US & Russia talks and point out that Ukraine isn't actually part of it, and use it as pretext to continue the war.
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I don’t want to see us as any assurer or guarantor of any agreement that comes out of it. We were idiots when we did it the first time and it looks to me like we’re gonna do it again. I think Rubio should be blowing up France’s, Germany’s, and the UK’s diplomatic lines telling them to take the lead on this and own it or STFU on anything we come up with. And no I don’t think that is what is happening because if it were we would be getting play by play on Truth Social.
 
#83,536
#83,536
LSU-SIU said:
As I said years ago, this will most likely escalate to Europe as they are expendable. Terms sound pretty good to me. Trump needs to immediately withdrawal all nuclear weapons from the EU and start to move on excessive weapon systems, and an emergency plan for the withdraw of troops in the future if required.

Yes, we're not your friends buddy.

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I think Germany forgot they are not allowed to comment on the democracy of others.

They lost that luxury back in 1945.
 
#83,537
#83,537
UTFanForLife said:
I think Germany forgot they are not allowed to comment on the democracy of others.

They lost that luxury back in 1945.
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At this point its just desperation, they are trying to destroy any U.S. and Russian cooperation. (continuous war) Trump should accept their terms, let's start with Swift.

The Ukraine needs to come clean, its really the only thing they got left.
 
#83,541
#83,541
So, just some thoughts.

Britain and France working on plans for ‘reassurance force’ to protect Ukraine

Going with the Finnish statement yesterday, Trump's and Vance's comments, Sec of Def's comments, and German's comments plus this new "assurance force" plan.

> Trump gave Europe three weeks to figure it out i.e. Ukraine's surrender... or the U.S. leaves
> Trump was willing to have the midget involved but since the midget did what the midget does.... Trump no longer needs him
> The Orange Man and Da Pootin are splitting up assets as they go along or a framework to split up the assets... spoils of war
> Sounds like the Orange Man is asking for more than just mineral rights but also infrastructure - no property rights?
> The EU apparently has come up with this stupid "assurance plan" which they want the U.S. to backstop... this will not be supported by Russia and it doesn't sound like surrender
> Trump is telling everyone you have limited time as you had 3 years to figure it out
> Rubio is saying the midget is lying

At this point, Trump has gotten the U.S. in the position to potentially secure some assets back and are actively working with the Russians to have a process to agreement on how to split the spoils of war. The Ukrainians are still on their own in this as they really have no cards and the midget is just throwing insults at everyone that has given the Ukraine a mark. If Europe wants to save the Ukraine in any way, they are going to have to come up with a realistic plan and pay for it themselves, otherwise.... it would seem like the Russians just push all those people into Poland as I mentioned a long time ago.

Either way its a Europe problem, not a U.S. one. Europe is on deck.



 
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#83,543
#83,543
#83,547
#83,547
just bob said:
Just turn over Z to Putin in exchange for ending it. Then dive deep into the corruption. The corruption between Obama, Ukraine, and Biden is a million times more concerning for us.
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Yeah, I mean basically he is saying if the Europeans can save part of it, go for it, but in the meantime us and the Russians are getting a framework together to split the spoils of war.

Basically we're out and done with funding, but we're still in to collect our money back... you got three weeks. The Orange bastard is one of a kind for sure. 🍊
 
#83,548
#83,548
eadaily.com

Zelensky is ready to give the USA rare earth metals of Ukraine: senators asked: EADaily

EADaily, August 13th, 2024. The United States is ready to take control of the reserves of rare earth metals on Ukraine, and Vladimir Zelensky agrees. This is stated in a joint statement by US Senators Richard Blumenthal and Lindsey Graham*, who visited Kiev today.
eadaily.com eadaily.com

Dont act like the latest news is some strange concept..

President Zelensky is pleased and ready to reach a strategic agreement with the United States regarding rare earth metals worth more than a trillion dollars owned by Ukraine, and has committed himself to creating a working group with the United States," the statement said.

and The EU was given much if not most of their money as loans, and we just handed them grants?

Dang Biden was dumb.
 
#83,550
#83,550
Orangeburst said:
eadaily.com

Zelensky is ready to give the USA rare earth metals of Ukraine: senators asked: EADaily

EADaily, August 13th, 2024. The United States is ready to take control of the reserves of rare earth metals on Ukraine, and Vladimir Zelensky agrees. This is stated in a joint statement by US Senators Richard Blumenthal and Lindsey Graham*, who visited Kiev today.
eadaily.com eadaily.com

Dont act like the latest news is some strange concept..

President Zelensky is pleased and ready to reach a strategic agreement with the United States regarding rare earth metals worth more than a trillion dollars owned by Ukraine, and has committed himself to creating a working group with the United States," the statement said.

and The EU was given much if not most of their money as loans, and we just handed them grants?

Dang Biden was dumb.
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I am not sure about the state of the european debt, but it was my understanding the other day (I posted an article) that the Ukraine is in the process of defaulting across the board.
 
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