War in Ukraine

[NEO]

No surprise watching Donald embarrass himself before the free world. Clearly his boss Putin has Kompromat on him. Thankfully this won’t affect President Musk’s agenda.

Don’t forget the pee tapes! I know you are rehashing your 2017 playbook and may have lost some pages but I’m here to help.

 

[volgr]

and somehow Russia fell for this death cult trap and is doing the murdering for them.

its like you guys don't think about the implications of what you are saying.

It wasnt a trap for Russia but Ukraine.

 

[NorthDallas40]

It wasnt a trap for Russia but Ukraine.

Lordy I’ve missed your completely ridiculous Putin nut hugging hot takes

 

[vol66]

The goal of most Presidents in my lifetime has been against aiding Russia in any way.

Putin thought he would win this war in three days, three weeks, three months…it’s been 3 years. For what? How much have they gained in territory and more importantly, hearts and minds of Ukrainians?

One, only one, is fighting for its sovereignty, one at least says we’re willing to border them and be a democracy.

In our Revolution against a king, we needed some help, we’ve got an investment in Ukraine now, it would be stupid to turn back now.

 

[norrislakevol]

The UK appears to be a powder keg as well.

The idea that they want to bring their ideology to the US looks worse and worse to more Americans.

Correct. After I posted that I though of the UK and even France. There is a lot of internal strife there too. One big spark and it will spread across a good chunk of Europe. For decades we have worried about Russia, and for good reason. The war in Ukraine nearly brought the rest of Europe to the brink I think, but the bigger enemy of Europe, particularly western Europe, lies within.

 

[LSU-SIU]

The goal of most Presidents in my lifetime has been against aiding Russia in any way.

Putin thought he would win this war in three days, three weeks, three months…it’s been 3 years. For what? How much have they gained in territory and more importantly, hearts and minds of Ukrainians?

One, only one, is fighting for its sovereignty, one at least says we’re willing to border them and be a democracy.

In our Revolution against a king, we needed some help, we’ve got an investment in Ukraine now, it would be stupid to turn back now.

WWI style combat, its not easy. I said it could take a decade or two initially, they are ahead of schedule imo.

How much have they gained in territory and more importantly, hearts and minds of Ukrainians?

Gaining territory is not the tactical objective. Destroying the Ukraine slowly should be the objective and destroying the meat.

hearts and minds of Ukrainians?

Why would they care about that? They're not there to take care of the Ukrainians or teach them basket weaving, they are there to destroy them unless a solution can be found. Nobody wants those Ukrainians. This is a real war, which at scale the world hasn't seen in what like 70+ years.

(same thing I said 2+ years ago)

The goal of most Presidents in my lifetime has been against aiding Russia in any way.

I agree there, but the question is why? I started asking myself about 30 years ago, maybe because I have lots of travels in the more distant parts of Europe and was exposed to many types of nations that I have different pov. But at the end of the day, I don't remember nor could anyone tell me what they did to me even indirectly.

We were indoctrinated.

 

[LouderVol]

It wasnt a trap for Russia but Ukraine.

so now it sounds like you are saying Russia is part of the death cult too. which would make sense because they were the ones who chose violence.

 

[BreatheUT]

The facts are the facts and I've been consistent from the get go.

Russia was the aggressor in this conflict. The issue I have is I think it was US and Europe rhetoric about Ukraine joining NATO, US agitation, the Biden Administration foreign policy of "Don't" and the weak kneed pull out mess called Afghanistan that emboldened Russia.

Further, how long was/is the US and Europe going to provide weapons, cash, etc as Ukrainians continue to die. Yeah, Ukraine has put up a valiant effort against a mighty enemy. That should not be lost and in vain.

There has never been any peace talks from the get go, and I'm not sure it was ever in the cards for the Biden Administration and democrat party because they like the Russia narrative. Notice they don't say much about the much bigger threat, China. It's possible the Ukraine funding was partially a kickback scheme as well.

I still don't think we should give all our cards away even if the Trump Administration wants to promote peace and a deal.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/19/politics/russia-ukraine-joe-biden-news-conference/index.html

 

[LSU-SIU]

Russia was the aggressor in this conflict. The issue I have is I think it was US and Europe rhetoric about Ukraine joining NATO, US agitation, the Biden Administration foreign policy of "Don't" and the weak kneed pull out mess called Afghanistan that emboldened Russia.

That is not a fact. The expansion of NATO was no. 1 which had gone on for 30 years. No. 2 was CIA working in the area to topple governments just like they were doing in Eastern Europe even a month or two ago. The Russian are not going to allow troops to just come across there from Europe, it isn't going to happen.... so either one you don't do it, or two war there.... even if you win the Ukraine... tactical nukes (see Congressional Record).

Russia gave everyone a heads up starting over 30 years ago. This was intended (neocons/globalists) to a degree, meaning Ukraine and Europe are expendable.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter at this point.... its immaterial though.

There are only two choices:

1. fund it

or

2. don't fund it

It doesn't matter who the President was, funding was going to be pulled, under Orange the time table was sped up. We're basically onto Europe now.

 

[BeardedVol]

The facts are the facts and I've been consistent from the get go.

Russia was the aggressor in this conflict. The issue I have is I think it was US and Europe rhetoric about Ukraine joining NATO, US agitation, the Biden Administration foreign policy of "Don't" and the weak kneed pull out mess called Afghanistan that emboldened Russia.

Further, how long was/is the US and Europe going to provide weapons, cash, etc as Ukrainians continue to die. Yeah, Ukraine has put up a valiant effort against a mighty enemy. That should not be lost and in vain.

There has never been any peace talks from the get go, and I'm not sure it was ever in the cards for the Biden Administration and democrat party because they like the Russia narrative. Notice they don't say much about the much bigger threat, China. It's possible the Ukraine funding was partially a kickback scheme as well.

I still don't think we should give all our cards away even if the Trump Administration wants to promote peace and a deal.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/19/politics/russia-ukraine-joe-biden-news-conference/index.html

NATO told Ukraine "no" back in 2008. They were never given a MAP, and even after Russia began the invasion in 2014 by annexing Crimea, there was still no talk of Ukraine joining NATO until after Russia's 2022 escalation.

It was never about NATO. If it were , Putin wouldn't have emptied the Russian bases on the Finland border after they joined NATO.

 

[Orange.]

been here for years dude. I was here for the First Ukraine thread, back when threads were limited by post count, and there was a second one, before this thread even came to exist.

you are the johnny come lately to buy whatever bs Putin puts down while applying exactly zero critical thinking to ANY of Russia's claims.

You are an idiot and like one of those old-time Barbie dolls that “talked” when somebody pulled the string.

“Buying whatever Putin…” “echoing Russian propaganda” is an op and continuation of the criminal and treasonous anti-democracy anti-American “Russiagate” lie.

If you were in favor of freedom, democracy, the Constitution, and America, you would clamoring for Hillary, Obama, and Biden’s handlers to be prosecuted for their conspiracy-theory disinformation op (with willing criminal support from most of the U.S. and foreign media) to corrupt U.S. elections and to spy on opposition party political parties, and to run a major anti-democracy psyop on the American people, which is at this moment once again being out in overdrive.

 

[LouderVol]

You are an idiot and like one of those old-time Barbie dolls that “talked” when somebody pulled the string.

“Buying whatever Putin…” “echoing Russian propaganda” is an op and continuation of the criminal and treasonous anti-democracy anti-American “Russiagate” lie.

If you were in favor of freedom, democracy, the Constitution, and America, you would clamoring for Hillary, Obama, and Biden’s handlers to be prosecuted for their conspiracy-theory disinformation op (with willing criminal support from most of the U.S. and foreign media) to corrupt U.S. elections and to spy on opposition party political parties, and to run a major anti-democracy psyop on the American people, which is at this moment once again being out in overdrive.

I do that in the relevant threads. but I throw in every politician. I don't slink into whataboutism to distract away from the talk in the thread I am currently posting in.

seriously, post a serious condemnation or problem you have with Putin. prove to us how critical and objective you actually are. because yet again you have avoided the topic at hand of being critical of anything Russia.

 

[volbound1700]

NATO told Ukraine "no" back in 2008. They were never given a MAP, and even after Russia began the invasion in 2014 by annexing Crimea, there was still no talk of Ukraine joining NATO until after Russia's 2022 escalation.

It was never about NATO. If it were , Putin wouldn't have emptied the Russian bases on the Finland border after they joined NATO.

Look, I want the war over and I don't think we should invest but you are spot on. The NATO narrative is just Russian propaganda. Now you can argue should USA get involved in every fight across the globe or not. There are wars going on in Africa, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, etc. that we don't even hear about. Even Colombia has never secured their hinterland which is ran by Warlords.

I tend to be in the camp that saving our economy by not getting stretched out in further wars is better than engaging Russia. If they go after a NATO nation, I think that flips the script but Ukraine is not a NATO nation.

 

[BeardedVol]

Look, I want the war over and I don't think we should invest but you are spot on. The NATO narrative is just Russian propaganda. Now you can argue should USA get involved in every fight across the globe or not. There are wars going on in Africa, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, etc. that we don't even hear about. Even Colombia has never secured their hinterland which is ran by Warlords.

I tend to be in the camp that saving our economy by not getting stretched out in further wars is better than engaging Russia. If they go after a NATO nation, I think that flips the script but Ukraine is not a NATO nation.

If we didn't want to be involved, then we shouldn't have forced Ukraine to disarm in order to comply with the Budapest Memorandum, under the auspices that we would guarantee their sovereignty and territorial integrity.

 

[BreatheUT]

That is not a fact. The expansion of NATO was no. 1 which had gone on for 30 years. No. 2 was CIA working in the area to topple governments just like they were doing in Eastern Europe even a month or two ago. The Russian are not going to allow troops to just come across there from Europe, it isn't going to happen.... so either one you don't do it, or two war there.... even if you win the Ukraine... tactical nukes (see Congressional Record).

Russia gave everyone a heads up starting over 30 years ago. This was intended (neocons/globalists) to a degree, meaning Ukraine and Europe are expendable.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter at this point.... its immaterial though.

There are only two choices:

1. fund it

or

2. don't fund it

It doesn't matter who the President was, funding was going to be pulled, under Orange the time table was sped up. We're basically onto Europe now.

I don't disagree what you said, but Russia physically went into Ukraine.

However, I'm not so sure democrats didn't want to fund it in perpetuity. Of course, Europe would allow the idiots over here to fund most of it. How many "friends" hang out with you while the free bar is still open and they can place orders on your tab?

 

[BreatheUT]

NATO told Ukraine "no" back in 2008. They were never given a MAP, and even after Russia began the invasion in 2014 by annexing Crimea, there was still no talk of Ukraine joining NATO until after Russia's 2022 escalation.

It was never about NATO. If it were , Putin wouldn't have emptied the Russian bases on the Finland border after they joined NATO.

That was one of several things I pointed out.

 

[volbound1700]

If we didn't want to be involved, then we shouldn't have forced Ukraine to disarm in order to comply with the Budapest Memorandum, under the auspices that we would guarantee their sovereignty and territorial integrity.

The guarantee of sovereignty doesn't read quite like you think. It reads more like we won't infringe on them rather than we are obligated to defend them. There is no clause that cites we should interact with the war.

Granted it is a different area but a good comparison could be Texas and the Mexican-American War for us. What if other nations over the seas intervened in that? People stayed out of our fight with Mexico. Keep in mind we got California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico in that war and secured the borders of Texas.

Ukraine is kind of like Texas for Russia.

Key is the real winner is China who is sitting back and watching America and Russia burn its resources on this conflict.

 

[hog88]

If we didn't want to be involved, then we shouldn't have forced Ukraine to disarm in order to comply with the Budapest Memorandum, under the auspices that we would guarantee their sovereignty and territorial integrity.

We only guaranteed we would respect their sovereignty and territorial integrity. We didn’t guarantee everyone would.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Look, I want the war over and I don't think we should invest but you are spot on. The NATO narrative is just Russian propaganda. Now you can argue should USA get involved in every fight across the globe or not. There are wars going on in Africa, Sri Lanka, Myanmar, etc. that we don't even hear about. Even Colombia has never secured their hinterland which is ran by Warlords.

There is no money to be made in those wars, but yes you are correct. Its all about $$$$$. The neocons basically won in the Ukraine meaning extraction of large amounts of money, the globalist would rather the Russia would be in a state of collapse so they could take over the Ukraine, Eastern Europe and Russia. That doesn't seem to be in the cards now, although Eastern Europe is vulnerable to attack from Europe.

Since that all appears to have failed, we now move onto Europe. The hunter becomes the hunted, but let's be honest Europe is like the Elmer Fudd of hunters.

Its appears we are getting close to the burn it down stage of the scam in the Ukraine, just like Afghanistan. Its a scam, always was.

HENRY (V.O.)
But now the guy has got to come up
with Paulie 's money every week,
no matter what. Business bad? ****
you, pay me. You had a fire? ****
you, pay ma. The place got hit by
lighting? **** you, pay me. Also,
Paulie could do anything. Especially
run up bills on the joint's credit.
Why not? Nobody's gonna pay for it
anyway.

EXT. BAMBOO LOUNGE - REAR ALLEYWAY - DAY

WE SEE cases of liquor, wine, etc., being carried out of
the rear door of the lounge by HOODS from the cabstand and
loaded onto U-Haul trucks.

HENRY (V.O.)
As soon as the deliveries are made
in the front door, you move the
stuff out the back and sell it at
a discount. You take a two hundred
dollar case of booze and sell it
for a hundred. It doesn't matter.
It's all profit.

INT. BAMBOO LOUNGE OFFICE

HENRY, JIMMY and TOMMY are standing around the small
workman's table. There is no desk. The office looks denuded
of furniture. A LAWYER is going over papers.

A terrified, unshaven SONNY BAMBOO is seated behind the
desk. The LAWYER is showing him where to sign.

HENRY (V.O.)
And, finally, when there's nothing
1 left, when you can't borrow
another buck from the bank or buy
another case of booze, you bust
the joint out.

 

[volbound1700]

There is no money to be made in those wars, but yes you are correct. Its all about $$$$$. The neocons basically won in the Ukraine meaning extraction of large amounts of money, the globalist would rather the Russia would be in a state of collapse so they could take over the Ukraine, Eastern Europe and Russia. That doesn't seem to be in the cards now, although Eastern Europe is vulnerable to attack from Europe.

Since that all appears to have failed, we now move onto Europe. The hunter becomes the hunted, but let's be honest Europe is like the Elmer Fudd of hunters.

I get your really down on Europe and for good reasons but I truly think that the right leader in 1-2 of these nations could flip the script quickly.

 

[BeardedVol]

The guarantee of sovereignty doesn't read quite like you think. It reads more like we won't infringe on them rather than we are obligated to defend them. There is no clause that cites we should interact with the war.

Granted it is a different area but a good comparison could be Texas and the Mexican-American War for us. What if other nations over the seas intervened in that? People stayed out of our fight with Mexico. Keep in mind we got California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico in that war and secured the borders of Texas.

Ukraine is kind of like Texas for Russia.

Key is the real winner is China who is sitting back and watching America and Russia burn its resources on this conflict.

And yet Ukraine suffered material loss to comply with US demands. Billions of dollars of missiles and long range bombers, not to mention the intrinsic safety of holding nuclear weapons.

You can hem and haw about the language, but the intent was clear, give up your weapons, we'll make sure no one invades you or tries to politically strong arm you (highly ironic at the moment), don't and will levy economic sanctions against you until your country collapses.

 

[volbound1700]

And yet Ukraine suffered material loss to comply with US demands. Billions of dollars of missiles and long range bombers, not to mention the intrinsic safety of holding nuclear weapons.

You can hem and haw about the language, but the intent was clear, give up your weapons, we'll make sure no one invades you or tries to politically strong arm you (highly ironic at the moment), don't and will levy economic sanctions against you until your country collapses.

No the intent was the USA would not invade or infringe on Ukrainian sovereignty. If you want to say Russia breached their side, sure that is true. However, there is NO OBLIGATION for the USA to stop Russia if they breached. It was a bad agreement on Ukraine's part.

 

[LSU-SIU]

I don't disagree what you said, but Russia physically went into Ukraine.

However, I'm not so sure democrats didn't want to fund it in perpetuity. Of course, Europe would allow the idiots over here to fund most of it. How many "friends" hang out with you while the free bar is still open and they can place orders on your tab?

Oh, I don't deny Russia went in, but its not quite as simple as that either. The U.S. goes into all kinds of nations, people barely bat an eye. I'm about as anti-war as they come, but that is the problem.... my country setup this one up as well.

Its like a person putting two pitbulls into a cage getting them pissed at each other.... than claiming they not evil.

 

[LSU-SIU]

I get your really down on Europe and for good reasons but I truly think that the right leader in 1-2 of these nations could flip the script quickly.

They were on the path to collapse before all this, this will speed it up. Russia will become the dominate force in the region (depending on if you believe Russia is in the region). Eastern Europe could save itself, but they probably have limited time and they should be looking East not West.

Trump is ditching Europe for multiple reasons.

Germany has absolutely destroyed itself, even 10 years ago they were still quite the dominate force there. The neocons cut their balls off.

 

[volbound1700]

Oh, I don't deny Russia went in, but its not quite as simple as that either. The U.S. goes into all kinds of nations, people barely bat an eye. I'm about as anti-war as they come, but that is the problem.... my country setup this one up as well.

Its like a person putting two pitbulls into a cage getting them pissed at each other.... than claiming they not evil.

You fail to see the different. If you are talking about recently, USA doesn't seize territory when they go in. They, most of the time, get no tangible value in their actions. They do it as the "World Police" to protect "Democracy." Sure, sometimes there could be economic reasons but the last time I checked, we didn't get any of that Iraq oil or make anything from being in Afghanistan or Iraq. Both were bottomless money pits that are a big part of why we are $ 36 Trillion in debt today.

Russia is actually trying to seize land from a neighbor and has already done it once with Crimea.

Now if you talk about USA in the 19th Century, that is another story.