War in Ukraine

#84,826
#84,826
MontyPython said:
Sounds like the Confederacy in our Civil War. Yet the South fought on.

But, really, you would surrender if you were Ukrainian? You’d just quit and let Russia take over your country? What would become of your home? Your wife? Your kids?

I’ve yet to hear anything real from Pooty suggesting he’s willing to stop anytime soon.
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I never said surrender. I said negotiate peace. Obviously that would require some concession from Ukraine, which Z is apparently not willing to accept. So, the war machine keeps turning.
 
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#84,827
#84,827
Also regarding Putin's request for US to mine their Rare Earth Minerals, we should jump on that as well as Ukraine. It will make it far less likely that Russia considers war if we have economic interests with each other.

Not sure how serious Putin was in the offer but that is a path towards disengagement and peace as well.
 
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#84,828
#84,828
rekinhavoc said:
www.foxnews.com

VICTOR DAVIS HANSON: 10 bad takeaways from the Zelenskyy blow-up

Victor Davis Hanson lays out 10 takeaways from Friday's extraordinary Oval Office meeting between President Trump, Vice President Vance and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com

1. Zelenskyy does not grasp—or deliberately ignores—the bitter truth: Those with whom he feels most affinity (Western globalists, the American Left, the Europeans) have little power in 2025 to help him. And those whom he obviously does not like or seeks to embarrass (as with his Scranton, Penn. campaign-like visit in September 2024) alone have the power to save him. For his own sake, I hope he is not being "briefed" by the Obama-Clinton-Biden gang to confront Trump, given their interests are not really Ukraine’s as they feign.

2. Zelenskyy acts as if his agenda and ours are identical. So, he keeps insisting that he is fighting for us despite our two-ocean-distance that he mocks. We do have many shared interests with Ukraine, but not all by any means: Trump wants to "reset" with Russia and triangulate it against China. He seeks to avoid a 1962 DEFCON 2-like crisis over a proxy showdown in proximity to a nuclear rival. And he sincerely wants to end the deadlocked Stalingrad slaughterhouse for everyone’s sake.

3. The Europeans (and Canada) are now talking loudly of a new muscular antithesis, independent of the U.S. Promises, promises—given that would require Europeans to prune back their social welfare state, frack, use nuclear, stop the green obsession, and spend 3-5% of their GDP on defense. The U.S. does not just pay 16% of NATO’s budget, but also puts up with asymmetrical tariffs that result in a European Union trade surplus of $160 billion, plays the world cop, patrolling sea-lanes and deterring terrorists and rogue states that otherwise might interrupt Europe’s commercial networks abroad, as well as de facto including Europe under a nuclear umbrella of 6,500 nukes.

4. Zelenskyy must know that all of the once-deal-breaking impediments to peace have been settled. Ukraine is now better armed than most NATO nations, but will not be in NATO, and no president has or will ever supply Ukraine with the armed wherewithal to take back the Donbass and Crimea. So, the only two issues are a) how far will Putin be willing to withdraw to his 2022 borders and b) how will he be deterred? The first is answered by a commercial sector/tripwire, joint Ukrainian-US-Europe resource development corridor in Eastern Ukraine, coupled with a Korea-like DMZ; the second by the fact that Putin, unlike his 2008 and 2014 invasions, has now incurred a million dead and wounded to a Ukraine that will remain thusly armed.

5. What are Zelenskyy’s alternatives without much U.S. help—wait for a return of the Democrats to the White House in four years? Hope for a rearmed Europe? Pray for a Democratic House and a third Vindman-like engineered Trump impeachment? Or swallow his pride, return to the White House, sign the rare-earth minerals deal, invite in the Euros (are they seriously willing to patrol a DMZ?), and hope Trump can warn Putin, as he did successfully between 2017-21, not to dare try it again?

6. If there is a cease-fire, a commercial deal, a Euro ground presence, and influx of Western companies into Ukraine, would there be elections? And if so, would Zelenskyy and his party win? And if not, would there be a successor transparent government that would reveal exactly where all the Western financial aid money went?

7. Zelenskyy might see a model in Netanyahu. The Biden Administration was far harder on him than Trump is on Ukraine, suspending arms shipments, demanding cease-fires, prodding for a wartime, bipartisan cabinet, hammering Israel on collateral damage—none of which Westerners have demanded of Zelenskyy. Yet Netanyahu managed a hostile President Biden, kept Israel close to its patron, and, when visiting, was gracious to his host. Netanyahu certainly would never before the global media have interrupted and berated a host and patron president in the White House.

8. If Ukraine has alienated the U.S., what then is its strategic victory plan? Wait around for more Euros? Hold off an increasingly invigorated Russian military? Cede more territory? What, then, exactly are Zelenskyy’s cards he seems to think form a winning hand?

9. If one views carefully all the 50-minute tape, most of it was going quite well—until Zelenskyy started correcting Vance firstly, and Trump secondly. By Ukraine-splaining to his hosts, and by his gestures, tone, and interruptions, he made it clear that he assumed that Trump was just more of the same compliant, clueless moneybags Biden waxen effigy. And that was naïve for such a supposedly worldly leader.

10. March 2025 is not March 2022, after the heroic saving of Kyiv—but three years and 1.5 million dead and wounded later. Zelenskyy is no longer the international heartthrob with the glamorous entourage. He has postponed elections, outlawed opposition media and parties, suspended habeas corpus and walked out of negotiations when he had an even hand in spring 2022 and apparently even now when he does not in spring 2025.
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I read that Ukraine constitution disallows elections during times of war. That may be one reason Z doesn't want the war to end...
 
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#84,830
#84,830
McDad said:
Do you recall our convo about the Memorandum? I remember one of us found a copy (or bullet points) and went through it in detail.
If you recollect, please see if I'm accurate in my retelling of that discussion in my reply to @volfanhill.
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I just read your reply. Yes I agree the document is vague. Very vague even. The majority argument made in this forum revolves around the English language version and its use of assurances. And no we didn’t agree but as I told Orangeburst recently I can’t say either of you are wrong. Again due to the lack of any definitized actions and consequences. The document by itself is a horrible document and never should have been signed.

As I have also explained here for me at least it’s more than just the document it’s what they gave up and what their expectations were in return also. Like I said the English version says assurances. The Russian and Ukrainian version says Guarantees. Clinton signed all three. And if he didn’t know what he was signing that is our fault but I highly doubt that is the cause.

Thr document is ambiguous on purpose. But the whole concept of what was given up with all three documents at lesst to me shows we have some level of obligation. But no it’s clear we never intended that obligation to rise to article 5 level and have US troops dying in Ukraine. To counter the value that the weapons were useless it’s been offered that Ukraine could not use them due to a lack of launch codes they were useless. My answer to that is that is self defeating because why did we go to the trouble of signing this document then we clearly saw they had value.
 
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#84,831
#84,831
just bob said:
Your awful demanding of someone with nothing to say.

Keeping the status quo means every man in Ukraine is dead, Russia takes what they want anyway.

You're little bi*** really screwed the pooch at the White House. lmao
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Put your big boy pants on and let's try this one more time...

Define the "peace deal" to which you refer. And what, specifically, will it do to bring a cessation of fighting?
 
#84,835
#84,835
MontyPython said:
Put your big boy pants on and let's try this one more time...

Define the "peace deal" to which you refer. And what, specifically, will it do to bring a cessation of fighting?
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You worship a pissant tyrant and clearly don't understand anything that's going on over there. Ukraine needs bodies from around the world to fight their war for them. If Z doesn't want to make any concessions and find a ceasefire solution with Russia, then F him and Ukraine. It's not our problem. We've given them waaaaaay too much. You advocate for war and refuse to volunteer for it. You have no voice or opinion on this matter.
 
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#84,836
#84,836
just bob said:
You worship a pissant tyrant and clearly don't understand anything that's going on over there. Ukraine needs bodies from around the world to fight their war for them. If Z doesn't want to make any concessions and find a ceasefire solution with Russia, then F him and Ukraine. It's not our problem. We've given them waaaaaay too much. You advocate for war and refuse to volunteer for it. You have no voice or opinion on this matter.
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The loonies can't even say what they want. Its kind of enjoyable to watch at times.

giphy.gif
 
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#84,838
#84,838
Y'all remember that time we were told that Trump was too crazy to be given access to the nuclear codes? If we elect him, he'll get us into a nuclear war?

Yep. The Marxists always project. Trump is standing in the gap, fighting against the Marxists pushing us in that direction.

It should be pretty plain who the warmongers are at this point. (And the electorate are far less stupid than the Marxist need, now that more and more are turning away from the MSM.)
 
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#84,842
#84,842
volbound1700 said:
I really like this guy's take on the situation. It definitely is refreshing to hear someone that is actually studying up on the topic rather than joining partnership ranks:

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I listened for like a minute and he kept talking about a break down of a "peace" deal. This was not a "peace" deal negotiation, it was suppose to be a welcoming for signing the stupid mineral deal that had been agreed upon. The midget tried to use it as his soap box and the let him rant about bad pootin this, and bad pootin that. He was very clear that there would be no peace deal and that the war would not end until da pootin pays for it all i.e. endless war.

Its not about being on a side. We're not even at the part that the Ukraine and Europe speaks with Russia.
 
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#84,845
#84,845
lawgator1 said:
Over a million people have died in that war. Who is responsible ? The answer is Putin and it's absolutely shameful that our President is siding with him.
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Actually you are responsible as well which what the Trump administration is saying, in part i.e. "it's complicated". The Ukraine already Lost, they lost a few years ago.... every day its about what more they lose.

What is your plan btw? 😂
 
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#84,846
#84,846
just bob said:
You worship a pissant tyrant and clearly don't understand anything that's going on over there. Ukraine needs bodies from around the world to fight their war for them. If Z doesn't want to make any concessions and find a ceasefire solution with Russia, then F him and Ukraine. It's not our problem. We've given them waaaaaay too much. You advocate for war and refuse to volunteer for it. You have no voice or opinion on this matter.
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Bob, I asked you to outline your suggested plan of action for them to cut their losses. You said, "Peace deal now."

One last time, define the "peace deal" to which you refer. And what, specifically, will it do to bring a cessation of fighting?

Not sure why you're putting up so much resistance to a simple question. If you don't answer, then clearly you really have no suggested plan of action for Ukraine to cut their losses.
 
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#84,847
#84,847
whodeycin85 said:
Both side are responsible...one to invading and the other for avoiding peace to stay in power
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Interesting perspective. So back in the day, George Washington was actually avoiding peace with Britain in order to stay in power? Or was George fighting for our country's independence? There's little difference between the two scenarios other than we actually started the revolutionary war now, didn't we? Whereas Ukraine was invaded by Russia for what... "neo nazis and potential NATO ascendancy".
 
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#84,848
#84,848
lawgator1 said:
Over a million people have died in that war. Who is responsible ? The answer is Putin and it's absolutely shameful that our President is siding with him.
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What a ridiculous comment.

Like Trump said when asked, he is siding with America, the world, and an end to the war. I guess you expect Trump to be a mediator for peace between Russia and Ukraine while tossing out public insults toward Putin and telling the world that he's in Ukraine's corner.

As an attorney, one would think you could wrap your head around this.
 
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#84,850
#84,850
Orange_Crush said:
What an absolutely stupid comment.

Like Trump said when asked, he is siding with America, the world, and an end to the war. I guess you expect Trump to be a mediator for peace between Russia and Ukraine while tossing out public insults toward Putin and telling the world that he's in Ukraine's corner.

What idiocy...

As an attorney, one would think you could wrap your head around this.
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No, I expect him to side with Ukraine so as to pressure Putin into making a deal that favors the aggrieved party. Pretty simple and until Trump took over it was a sentiment shared by GOP leadership.
 
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