War in Ukraine

[05_never_again]

I don't know what the way out of this is. The flaw in the Trump, et al plan is that it provides no security guarantees for Ukraine. The problem is that security guarantees for Ukraine 1) prevent Russia from coming to the table in the first place and 2) in my opinion, by definition would expand the conflict.

I also haven't heard a better alternative to that plan, or really any alternative to that plan, unless you count continuing to send Ukraine money and weapons ad infinitum a plan. What I do know is that deals occur when there is a power imbalance between two parties, not once you equalize a power imbalance between two parties. If you make Russia's position weaker and Ukraine's position stronger as a condition of bringing them to the table, then neither side has an incentive for coming to the table.

 

[NorthDallas40]

since when did "we" become Ukraine?

It got Ukraine, and maybe Europe that invasion. but it got us diddly squat but another hundreds billion of dollars gone for no return.

I know this doesn’t make anyone feel better but the total amount of funds authorized by Congress to date is $175B (not the hundreds of billions claimed by Trump) of which about $65B have been spent? So that $175B is gone. Trump cannot redirect funds authorized by Congress I am pretty sure only Congress can claw any of that back. He can slow roll it of course which was one of the points in his first impeachment I believe. The slow rolling of Javelins which did get delivered by the required deadline but were slow rolled to to get some concession out of Ukraine on something I don’t remember (which frankly I have no problem with. They got the weapons within the mandated deadline going from memory)

How Much U.S. Aid Is Going to Ukraine?

Nine charts illustrate the extraordinary level of support the United States has provided Ukraine in its war against Russian invaders.

www.cfr.org

 

[VOLLeeann]

 

[hog88]

I know this doesn’t make anyone feel better but the total amount of funds authorized by Congress to date is $175B (not the hundreds of billions claimed by Trump) of which about $65B have been spent? So that $175B is gone. Trump cannot redirect funds authorized by Congress I am pretty sure only Congress can claw any of that back. He can slow roll it of course which was one of the points in his first impeachment I believe. The slow rolling of Javelins which did get delivered by the required deadline but were slow rolled to to get some concession out of Ukraine on something I don’t remember (which frankly I have no problem with. They got the weapons within the mandated deadline going from memory)

How Much U.S. Aid Is Going to Ukraine?

Nine charts illustrate the extraordinary level of support the United States has provided Ukraine in its war against Russian invaders.

www.cfr.org

Ah well, it's only $175 billion. I thought we were talking about real money and not chump change.

 

[VOLLeeann]

Zelenskyy says Ukraine is still ready to sign mineral deal with U.S.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Ah well, it's only $175 billion. I thought we were talking about real money and not chump change.

That wasn’t my point and you know it. $175B is very real money. And based on what has been spent thus far there is absolutely no reason for Congress to authorize anymore as there should be plenty left in the piggy bank. Also as far as I’m concerned there shouldn’t be a penny of financial aid authorized anymore since at this point the EU needs to pay for the care and feeding of their new adopted kid.

The “hundreds of billions” was Trump being Trump. Again. As usual. In trying to sell the $500B resources deal. Hey I hope he recoups every single penny. Even a bit more via this sharing agreement that would be amazing and yet another indictment against Puddinhead for not exploring any means to recoup our spending. But Trump exaggerated the funds to date. Again. As usual.

 

[hog88]

That wasn’t my point and you know it. $175B is very real money. And based on what has been spent thus far there is absolutely no reason for Congress to authorize anymore as there should be plenty left in the piggy bank. Also as far as I’m concerned there shouldn’t be a penny of financial aid authorized anymore since at this point the EU needs to pay for the care and feeding of their new adopted kid.

The “hundreds of billions” was Trump being Trump. Again. As usual. In trying to sell the $500B resources deal. Hey I hope he recoups every single penny. Even a bit more via this sharing agreement that would be amazing and yet another indictment against Puddinhead for not exploring any means to recoup our spending. But Trump exaggerated the funds to date. Again. As usual.

I've been saying all along that Europe should be footing the bill for Ukraine, you disagreed with me.

 

[NorthDallas40]

I've been saying all along that Europe should be footing the bill for Ukraine, you disagreed with me.

Not on money I didn’t. I’ve said all along no direct money they still have enormous corruption issues. We disagree on whether we are obligated on any aid at all. You’ve been ok with sales of lethal aid. I’ve said sale or grant I think we should be providing lethal aid. Three years down the road there is still a bunch of money committed but not spent so providing lethal aid is going to continue at least thru that burn down and I see absolutely no reason to discuss more right now.

 

[BeardedVol]

I've been saying all along that Europe should be footing the bill for Ukraine, you disagreed with me.

They are.

EU Assistance to Ukraine (in U.S. Dollars)

Last updated February 25, 2025. To view a PDF version, please click here. The European Union (EU) and our 27 Member States remain united and determined in our unprecedented support for Ukraine. Since the start of the war, the EU and our Member States have made available close to $145 billion* in...

www.eeas.europa.eu

 

[hog88]

Not on money I didn’t. I’ve said all along no direct money they still have enormous corruption issues. We disagree on whether we are obligated on any aid at all. You’ve been ok with sales of lethal aid. I’ve said sale or grant I think we should be providing lethal aid. Three years down the road there is still a bunch of money committed but not spent so providing lethal aid is going to continue at least thru that burn down and I see absolutely no reason to discuss more right now.

From the beginning we should have been selling all the weapons Europe wanted to buy for Ukraine, even provide training (at a cost) on the weapons systems.

 

[hog88]

They are.

EU Assistance to Ukraine (in U.S. Dollars)

Last updated February 25, 2025. To view a PDF version, please click here. The European Union (EU) and our 27 Member States remain united and determined in our unprecedented support for Ukraine. Since the start of the war, the EU and our Member States have made available close to $145 billion* in...

www.eeas.europa.eu

Yeah they have been providing SOME of the assistance. Nobody is saying anything different.

 

[BeardedVol]

Yeah they have been providing SOME of the assistance. Nobody is saying anything different.

They don't have hundreds of parking lots and warehouse full of aged and expiring weapons like we do. Hence why they have been providing more monetary and humanitarian aid than military.

You've been shown this information, numerous times.

 

[hog88]

They don't have hundreds of parking lots and warehouse full of aged and expiring weapons like we do. Hence why they have been providing more monetary and humanitarian aid than military.

You've been shown this information, numerous times.

Did the taxpayers buy those weapons?

You act like the weapon fairy just created them for free.

 

[MOOOOONEY]

No, I expect him to side with Ukraine so as to pressure Putin into making a deal that favors the aggrieved party. Pretty simple and until Trump took over it was a sentiment shared by GOP leadership.

How do you propose that we put pressure on Putin?

Threat of war if he doesn’t comply? What if he doesn’t stop? Are you advocating for sending sons and daughters, mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters, friends and neighbors to Ukraine to die?

 

[MOOOOONEY]

I'm going to enjoy watching a bunch of the people who said "Ukraine is Europe's problem" throw a tantrum when Europe steps up.

Not a problem at all. If Europe wants to send their soldiers to die then so be it.

 

[BeardedVol]

Did the taxpayers buy those weapons?

You act like the weapon fairy just created them for free.

Do the taxpayers pay to store them and maintain them until they are obsolete and scrapped or expired?

The sunk cost fallacy is strong with you.

 

[LSU-SIU]

I don't know what the way out of this is. The flaw in the Trump, et al plan is that it provides no security guarantees for Ukraine. The problem is that security guarantees for Ukraine 1) prevent Russia from coming to the table in the first place and 2) in my opinion, by definition would expand the conflict.

I also haven't heard a better alternative to that plan, or really any alternative to that plan, unless you count continuing to send Ukraine money and weapons ad infinitum a plan. What I do know is that deals occur when there is a power imbalance between two parties, not once you equalize a power imbalance between two parties. If you make Russia's position weaker and Ukraine's position stronger as a condition of bringing them to the table, then neither side has an incentive for coming to the table.

Trump is only saying if the war is to end quickly than the parties need to get together and come up with an agreement.

The problem is that security guarantees for Ukraine 1) prevent Russia from coming to the table in the first place and 2) in my opinion, by definition would expand the conflict.

A security guarantee would only mean something after a peace agreement is reached and agreed upon or as a part of the agreement, so how would that change Russian's stance at coming to the table. The Russians have continuously agreed to sit down with the parties. All of this is moot as the Ukrainians say they will never agree with the Russians on another agreement, and I some of the other European countries are saying the same thing.

I also haven't heard a better alternative to that plan, or really any alternative to that plan,

There is no plan or alternative to the plan, as no plan exists. Trump asked Europeans to come up plans but it looks like they're just sitting around and having tea with the dwarf.

What I do know is that deals occur when there is a power imbalance between two parties

The only cards to play is by the EU and U.S. and its limited i.e. sanctions, the Ukraine has no cards to play.... the Russians control the board and have since late 2022 or early 2023 (see my comments from 2022).

 

[Orange_Crush]

 

[volbound1700]

That wasn’t my point and you know it. $175B is very real money. And based on what has been spent thus far there is absolutely no reason for Congress to authorize anymore as there should be plenty left in the piggy bank. Also as far as I’m concerned there shouldn’t be a penny of financial aid authorized anymore since at this point the EU needs to pay for the care and feeding of their new adopted kid.

The “hundreds of billions” was Trump being Trump. Again. As usual. In trying to sell the $500B resources deal. Hey I hope he recoups every single penny. Even a bit more via this sharing agreement that would be amazing and yet another indictment against Puddinhead for not exploring any means to recoup our spending. But Trump exaggerated the funds to date. Again. As usual.

I think the $ 350 Billion number includes add they have gotten even pre-Biden and going back to 2009 or sometime.

 

[LSU-SIU]

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWar..._president_of_finland_alexander_stubb_speaks/

These people must smoke delusional because its just Fantasy Land. Three years later and this is what you think is going to happen? I propose the process start by us getting all our purple colored, half Unicorn and half Pegasuses together and ride them into battle.

He is sitting there for 6+ minutes talking to a person about a process and agreement that has already said there will be no agreements.

And he is saying Russia can't be trusted.... well what the hell is the rest of the speech than?

 

[NorthDallas40]

I think the $ 350 Billion number includes add they have gotten even pre-Biden and going back to 2009 or sometime.

I saw a number that put that total sum under $60B. Total prior to Feb 2022. Which is absolutely mind boggling when you consider no lethal aid was ever given before Trump’s first term, even $60B sounds ridiculously high

 

[LSU-SIU]

Hopefully that is ALL of it and the war is over for us.

 

[hog88]

Do the taxpayers pay to store them and maintain them until they are obsolete and scrapped or expired?

The sunk cost fallacy is strong with you.

They still had value and could/should have been sold.

 

[volbound1700]

I saw a number that put that total sum under $60B. Total prior to Feb 2022. Which is absolutely mind boggling when you consider no lethal aid was ever given before Trump’s first term, even $60B sounds ridiculously high

Like I said, the $ 350 Billion is there, it is just misleading.

The $ 175 Billion voted on was the lethal aid since 2014 or so. There is another $ 80B or so on humanitarian items (not related to war).

Then there is the weapons provided to Ukraine prior to 2014.

Basically, it is all the money we have ever given to Ukraine, not just for this war.

 

[volbound1700]

They still had value and could/should have been sold.

I already went through that with BeardedVol. He made a comment about us just sending them equipment and I asked him who paid the freight costs and he never responded. Totally forgets there are costs to move this stuff from point A to point B.