War in Ukraine

#81
#81
I would almost bet money the US has a silent agreement that once our silicon plants go live here China can take Taiwan. We will make it publicly look different but in the end that’s all thst matters. Yes we will lose a tactical base but we still have Guam and neither side wants to actually go to war.
 
#83
#83
This is bad news for us, even if we stay neutral, our economy is in a precarious state add global destabilization on multiple fronts and this spells bad news. I don't see any good coming from it.
 
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#84
#84
DuckInAPen said:
Before I respond to the points you made in your previous post, Burhead, I'd like to thank you for your reasonableness and your civility (rare commodities, as you know, in this forum). As previously, I invite your correction of any errors I have made in what I have written below.



I'm not sure what you mean when you say that "Putin is KGB through and through." He's doubtless a very ruthless man who carries with him the legacy of his formation in that organization, but he's most certainly no longer a communist, and he has supported materially (whether from conviction, political calculation, or some combination of the two) the revival of Christianity in Russia. He may well hate us, but he appears to be a rational and disciplined actor who can be counted on to pursue his country's interests without coming into military conflict with the United States or our allies of long standing, and he certainly has no designs to revive communism in Russia.



I think one must distinguish his aspiration to reannex the lost territory of the Soviet Union (most of which had previously been the territory of the Russian Empire) from a desire to revive the Soviet state. The latter, as champion par excellence of international socialist revolution, was by its very nature inimical to America and to the free world generally. The new Russia does not seem to aspire to expand her territory beyond her traditional sphere of influence (nor does she seem to have the vitality to do so, even if she so wished).



Well, I do recall a Georgian friend of mine saying that the war with Russia in 2007 was very unpopular among the Georgians and that they widely viewed their president as acting as a puppet of the West. I don't know how representative his opinion is, but he was hardly more sanguine about American meddling in his homeland than about Russian meddling.

In any case, why should American lives be risked or American treasure be expended for the defense of these states? What do such "allies" have to offer us? What past service of theirs obligates us to them? Our alliance with them, moreover, is an unnecessary provocation to Russia (as an alliance of Russia with Mexico or Canada would be to us and as their alliance with Cuba in fact was). Let us wish these peoples well, but it is they who must bear the burden of vindicating their own freedom.



I of course do not believe that this is a desirable state of affairs, but it is one for which we set the precedent when we sundered Kosovo, the historical heartland of the Serbian people, from Yugoslavia (acting in alliance with Islamist terrorists allied to Osama bin Laden). The various color-coded revolutions we've sponsored on Russia's doorstep haven't helped either.



I'm very glad to read this, but aggressive military support of the Ukrainian government carries with it the very real risk of allowing the conflict to escalate beyond our ability to control it. The Ukraine (with her capital, Kiev, the very origin of the Russian people) means far more to Russia than it can ever mean to us.



There's a great deal of ambiguity there, however, in what a Ukrainian is and where his allegiance lies. There are quite a lot of Ukrainians, especially in the east, who wish to maintain a close bond with Russia and in whose eyes the ouster of the duly elected Yanukovich (as the result of American meddling) delegitimized the government.

Consider also Russia's reannexation of the Crimea. It was accomplished with fewer deaths than occur in any one of numerous mass-shooting events that take place in our country each year. Thousands of Ukrainian soldiers and officers defected to Russia, offering no resistance at all. What does that say about the national identity and allegiance of these people?

I'm also dubious of our ability to identify the worse and the better actors abroad. We depose Saddam and open the door to ISIS. We depose Gadaffi and get open-air slave markets. We try to depose Assad (the defender of the Christian community in Syria) and support the cannibal Islamist Abu Sakkar. I don't know what reason we have to believe that our judgment will be much better in the former Soviet Union.



I agree with that, and should Russia strike us or one of our real allies (and I don't actually believe she has any designs to do so), we and our allies will have to strike back decisively and with overwhelming force. So long as Russia is acting within her traditional sphere of influence, however, let others keep her in check, if they are so inclined.



And perhaps therein lies a common interest we can leverage in our effort to contain China, our real adversary.

In any case, let it be for America and for Americans that American blood is shed and that American treasure is expended. We've had two decades of fruitless wars abroad. It's time that we cultivate peace and prosperity and that we prepare ourselves for the real threats to our security and welfare that are emerging.
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Great post . My Dad and my Moms Dad both served 26 years. Little brother was in the Army until he checked out . Uncles served too. Extremely military family. Also tend to be well above average intelligence, and most have degrees . Not a single warmonger among us...funny how when it is your family and buddies that actually have to kill and be killed, restraint is far more common than spoiled politicians often "itching for a fight" because their lobbyists want to line their pockets.

I am about as patriotic as a normal person can be. Hated the USSR. They were a threat. Russia not so much. California is far more likely to wreck this country than the Russians. Think on that for a second.

Btw....Ukraine was just as vital a part of the USSR as modern day Russia...and just as enthusiastic.

When did Ukraine become a US ally?

Why do we keep *****ing on Russias porch?

When will these dumb liberals realize the only external threat to US prosperity that matters is China? Wake up people.

END LOBBYING. BRIBERY IS ILLEGAL FOR A REASON FOLKS.
 
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#86
#86
Deadly game of cat and mouse in the skies over Europe: Video shows RAF jet intercepting Russian bomber as it heads towards British airspace as as tensions rise in Belarus amid fears of Ukraine invasion

Dramatic cockpit footage has captured the moment an RAF jet intercepted a Russian bomber as it headed towards British airspace on Friday, as tensions on the Poland-Belarus border ratcheted up and fears grew of an invasion of Ukraine.

The two nuclear-capable Russian Tu-160 'White Swan' bombers entered 'the UK area of interest,' the MoD confirmed after the incident.

The Kremlin warplanes approached Dutch airspace before being intercepted by the RAF and were seen heading north into international airspace over the North Sea at around 12.45pm, according to Mil Radar.

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Pictured: A still grab from a video inside the cockpit of a Russian nuclear-capable bomber showing the aircraft being intercepted by a British Typhoon fighter jet

British Typhoon and F35 Lightning pilots team up with US heavy bombers in show of strength | Daily Mail Online
 
#87
#87
US jets intercepted by Russia as Moscow complains about 'aggressive military activity in the Black Sea region' - and tensions remain high over exercises on the border with Ukraine

Russia's Defense Ministry has complained about what it says is 'aggressive U.S. military action' as tension mounts over Ukraine and Putin's planes intercepted American jets over international waters.

The US 6th Fleet took issue with Russia's criticism, and called the interactions with the Kremlin's jets 'safe and professional,' according to Military.com.

US jets engaged by Russia as Moscow complains of 'aggressive military activity in Black Sea region' | Daily Mail Online
 
#88
#88
marcusluvsvols said:
I am about as patriotic as a normal person can be. Hated the USSR. They were a threat. Russia not so much. California is far more likely to wreck this country than the Russians. Think on that for a second.
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California doesn't have a nuclear stockpile and Russia does. I think its not wise to consider Russia a geopolitical foe when they consider us one.

Btw....Ukraine was just as vital a part of the USSR as modern day Russia...and just as enthusiastic.

When did Ukraine become a US ally?
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In 2014 when the Ukrainian people overthrew a corrupt Russian puppet who brutalized his own people to try and stay in power?

Why do we keep *****ing on Russias porch?
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Are we really doing that if those former Soviet Republics and Eastern bloc countries want us there? Those countries that were under Soviet oppression made a determined push to join NATO after the collapse of communism for a potential resurgent Russia, I bet you they are glad they did now right?
 
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#90
#90
Franklin Pierce said:
US jets intercepted by Russia as Moscow complains about 'aggressive military activity in the Black Sea region' - and tensions remain high over exercises on the border with Ukraine

Russia's Defense Ministry has complained about what it says is 'aggressive U.S. military action' as tension mounts over Ukraine and Putin's planes intercepted American jets over international waters.

The US 6th Fleet took issue with Russia's criticism, and called the interactions with the Kremlin's jets 'safe and professional,' according to Military.com.

US jets engaged by Russia as Moscow complains of 'aggressive military activity in Black Sea region' | Daily Mail Online
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Russia has no room to complain here, they've been making mock bombing runs at us in Alaska for decades.

That being said no ground forces on Russia's doorstep, nothing good comes from us taking it too far.
 
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#91
#91
Burhead said:
California doesn't have a nuclear stockpile and Russia does. I think its not wise to consider Russia a geopolitical foe when they consider us one.
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If one considers where our hard and soft power are active and where Russian hard and soft power are active, one can easily see how it is that the Russians currently consider us to be a geopolitical foe without our being obliged to regard them as such in return. One can also see that the current geopolitical rivalry is not an unavoidable and unchangeable fact of nature.

In 2014 when the Ukrainian people overthrew a corrupt Russian puppet who brutalized his own people to try and stay in power?
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The "corrupt Russian puppet" was elected by the Ukrainian people. Are we to understand that the coup was more representative of the will of the Ukrainian people than the election was?

Are we really doing that if those former Soviet Republics and Eastern bloc countries want us there? Those countries that were under Soviet oppression made a determined push to join NATO after the collapse of communism for a potential resurgent Russia, I bet you they are glad they did now right?
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How would we feel if the Canadians or the Mexicans wanted a Russian or Chinese military presence in their countries? Would we tolerate that without protest?

Perhaps a plurality or even a majority of Ukrainians and Georgians are glad that they have American support for their admission to NATO. Does that mean that Americans should be?
 
#92
#92
DuckInAPen said:
The "corrupt Russian puppet" was elected by the Ukrainian people. Are we to understand that the coup was more representative of the will of the Ukrainian people than the election was?
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When you have your security forces use snipers on your own people you lose any and all credibility and legitimacy.


How would we feel if the Canadians or the Mexicans wanted a Russian or Chinese military presence in their countries? Would we tolerate that without protest?
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We have a right to protest but that's it. So in your scenario should we launch a covert invasion of Canada and Mexico, steal their territory, and then create puppet governments and claim it wasn't us but the "people" of those regions that wanted independence?

Perhaps a plurality or even a majority of Ukrainians and Georgians are glad that they have American support for their admission to NATO. Does that mean that Americans should be?
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I don't see why Americans would have an issue, there would be no conflict if Ukraine was in NATO if Russia doesn't start one. NATO is not the modern day Wehrmacht itching to invade Russia no matter how badly Russian media portrays it as such.
 
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#93
#93
marcusluvsvols said:
Not a single warmonger among us...funny how when it is your family and buddies that actually have to kill and be killed, restraint is far more common than spoiled politicians often "itching for a fight" because their lobbyists want to line their pockets.
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It was not without good reason that we did away with the draft, and so long as it remains likely that women (!) will be obliged to register for Selective Service, I could never support its reintroduction. I think, though, that the introduction of an all-volunteer force has had the unfortunate side effect of insulating a significant majority of Americans from awareness of the consequences of our foreign policy. Our wars are fought by "other people," people about whom we can say, "Well, that's what they signed up for." The few carry the burden of the many (or rather, the many impose on the few a burden that neither the few nor the many should be carrying in the first place).
 
#95
#95
Rasputin_Vol said:
Winter in Russia is soon approaching and we are here saber-rattling... very smart.
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You mean Russia is saber rattling? Why is there a need to buildup forces on the border again? What has changed in the years long stalemate that demands amassing more forces?
 
#96
#96
Burhead said:
You mean Russia is saber rattling? Why is there a need to buildup forces on the border again? What has changed in the years long stalemate that demands amassing more forces?
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Ukraine borders Russia. I would say they have as much concern over that region as anyone. The US has NO business being over there AT ALL. There is no strategic economic or military need for us to be involved in Ukraine other than to c*ckblock Russian gas exports or move the borders of NATO onto Russia's western borders, which is provocative.
 
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#98
#98
#99
#99
I find it hard to believe the Russians would move on Ukraine in mid-November, but I guess stranger things have happened.
 
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