War in Ukraine

[DC_Vol]

Honest question, have we ever intentionally drone striked a target that was surrounded by civilians? civilians we knew about? The answer is yes.

My stance is collateral damage and genocide are both evil as hell but we live in a world where countries can’t seem to get the F along.

I do think Putin has lost his mind and made a horrible tactical error. My biggest concern is are we getting the truth here. Soros is heavily backing Ukraine. That alone concerns me.

You cannot start to understand the current situation only looking back a few years. This has been a long time coming. Brewing since the mid 90’s. Ukraine is just where it’s come to a head.

 

[InVOLuntary]

Save your pity for the Ukrainians, Syrians, Iraqis, Libyans and Afghans... and Americans.

No you're pathetic. My pitty is for you. You're as bad as Luther. You're completely ef'd up.

 

[NEO]

you are using words to make a point; Putin is killing and has killed instead of using words.

you and he are not comparable in any form or fashion.

Agree.

But the Ukraine was investigating Soros and now he is bluntly backing them and providing capital.

It is just throwing a huge monkey wrench in the optics for me.

 

[InVOLuntary]

Oh yeah, @Rasputin_Vol, I'm sure you're really pissed at your love daddy since he's rounding up all those protestors. You know since your for all that freedom stuff.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

According to Trump, he saw Bolton in the 'heavy' or bad cop role, and that gave him (Trump) an advantage in negotiations. His appointment heralded that Bolton was to be the NSC hatchet-man and purge NSC of Obama disciples. A task Bolton took on with enthusiasm.

Meh, I didn't see much evidence of any hatchet work near the end when we had a military official openly saying they withheld troop withdrawal numbers from Syria. If they weren't Obama holdovers, they were insubordinate traitors.

 

[AM64]

daytime earlier.

You left out the rest. Bend over and kiss you azz goodbye ... especially if you can read "If you are close enough to read this ..." or just anything else printed printed on the bomb

 

[NEO]

Why do terrorists hide amongst the innocent?

Was Waco collateral damage or genocide?

My stance: governments are evil and we are all getting played.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Why do terrorists hide amongst the innocent?

They believe that their opponents would not attack them in order to not rack up innocent civilian casualties. It is a tactical win if their opponent doesn't attack and a political/propaganda win if their opponent does attack.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Agree.

But the Ukraine was investigating Soros and now he is bluntly backing them and providing capital.

It is just throwing a huge monkey wrench in the optics for me.

They were investigating the Bidens also. What happened to that?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Oh yeah, @Rasputin_Vol, I'm sure you're really pissed at your love daddy since he's rounding up all those protestors. You know since your for all that freedom stuff.

He's not perfect nor have I claimed him to be perfect. He's not anymore or less flawed than anyone else out there.

 

[AM64]

I don’t disagree with this at all. I was thinking yesterday that it’s frightening the economic damage inflicted in less than 24 hours. The “system” is built for this now. This wouldn’t have been possible 20 years ago.

Careful. A certain somebody will be by to explain how our embargoes and such against Japan forced Japan to attack us in 1941. Pretty sure some economic issues used by northern states against the south helped fan the flames of secession well over a century ago. It's just easier and faster to do it with buttons now.

 

[DEFENDTHISHOUSE]

No you're pathetic. My pitty is for you. You're as bad as Luther. You're completely ef'd up.

While Ras stops short of condemning Putin, he’s absolutely right about a lot of what he’s saying. Why don’t your refute his claims instead of resorting to name calling? Did you know the Ukrainians had been shelling the donboss region ?

Russia voices alarm over sharp increase of Donbass shelling

There’s no good guys and bad guys like some ****ing marvel movie here. Dead civilians and soldiers are the result of yet another stupid politicians goals.

 

[volinbham]

I find it interesting that we call Putin a killer or murderer. What do we call LBJ, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, both Bushes, Clinton Obama, Trump and Biden?

Oh, whataboutism.

And Louis CK's and Cosby's offenses are the same...

Interestingly of them I have the biggest problem with Obama's hidden justification for assassinating a US citizen - closest thing to Putin's actions but still miles away.

 

[kiddiedoc]

So, is the VN party boat a no-go?

 

[Paper_Towel]

So, is the VN party boat a no-go?

Might be able to tactically acquire a ride

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Careful. A certain somebody will be by to explain how our embargoes and such against Japan forced Japan to attack us in 1941. Pretty sure some economic issues used by northern states against the south helped fan the flames of secession well over a century ago. It's just easier and faster to do it with buttons now.

Morrill Tariff - Wikipedia

 

[AM64]

I don’t think he’s excusing one at the expense of the other. The point he is making is the economic sanctions being championed right now will one day soon be turned against the people.

Too late we've already had some people who weaponized the IRS against their enemies - just more targeted economic sanctions. Remember our own limitations on money transfers and reporting - the $10K thingy? That and the NSA eavesdroppers sure ended drug dealing quickly.

 

[NCFisher]

Meh, I didn't see much evidence of any hatchet work near the end when we had a military official openly saying they withheld troop withdrawal numbers from Syria. If they weren't Obama holdovers, they were insubordinate traitors.

Meh, if you expect every snake out the door in four years, perhaps you're not as astute re: the entrenchment of the bureaucratic state as you profess.
There was no visible line between embedded neo-cons and Obama appointees protecting the state, and both were indeed traitorous.

 

[Carl Pickens]

Even this Where’s Waldo looking MF gets it JB
Morning Joe — Why are we still buying Russian oil…

 

[NorthDallas40]

Whataboutism... I see you use that term as much as @NorthDallas40 uses carrying water. I guess that is supposed to be dismissive of the facts I lay out.

Oh I can assure you we are all dismissive of the “facts” you lay out.

 

[Paper_Towel]

 

[AM64]

Its likely too late to really salvage anything at this point. The time for peace and diplomacy has passed. I'm not certain there is much of a good answer at this point.

Since the winter of 2013, I've been on here saying that the US should not involved in the internal politics of a country half a world away from us. That was one threshold that was crossed. Then, when the Minsk II terms were agreed upon, the US discouraged the Ukrainians from abiding by those agreements and dragging this thing out even longer. And now with an incompetent POTUS and a nation that appears to be spiraling down the tubes, we continued to push our agenda in the region and stir the pot. Our leadership didn't do us any favors. We have the govt we deserve, unfortunately. While the country has been distracted with a virus with a 99.5% survival rate and chaos half a world away, the leadership here is robbing us blind and making us out to be the enemy. I root for their downfall "by any means necessary". Anyone fighting against their king term agenda is a convenient ally at this point. Putin is far from an ideal leader, but at least knows who his enemies are. They just happen to be my enemies also.

We probably shouldn't be involved with internal affairs of another country - basically civil wars or revolutions. The unprovoked invasion of one country by another is a different matter. That a county might join with others in a self defense pact is not provocation. It's wise to join equally in pacts that protect our allies - east and west - and act with reason to support those member nations against aggression; again a lesson from WW2 about timely intervention. The UN was a good but flawed concept because it fails to stop aggression and to target aggressors; you can't do much to limit aggression when the aggressor is tying up the action in the UN. What might have happened if we had UN peacekeeping forces on the Ukrainian border while Russia was building an invading force a few miles away.

The one special case about internal struggles that's a real thorn in the decision process is genocide - not the act, but when and what defines it.

 

[AM64]

but it doesn't mean Trump was seeking armed conflict with other countries - just that he had no team picking his people

Trump couldn't have done much worse hiring people if he'd had our past athletic directors finding them.

 

[AM64]

I don't think the people of Ukraine called for this. I don't believe that Putin had a desire to use military conflict as a preemptive measure. I think the focus was always on hoping to establish a buffer between Russia and NATO by diplomatic means. They had a plan in place with Minsk II and the Ukranian leadership refused to abide by it.

Why? When has NATO gotten together and invaded another country? If you are afraid of a neighbor who has a self defense pact with other countries, it's because you either have mental issues or aggressive intentions toward your more hapless neighbor ... or both.

 

[AM64]

Maybe that’s the reason. If it is was, it was an idiotic reason to hire him.

Then again, maybe it wasn’t. Maybe Trump wanted someone who challenged his way of thinking.

Maybe Bolton said all the right things when he was interviewed.

Maybe he was persuaded by other long time DC operators.

I could keep going. I don’t know the reason, and neither do you.

What we do know is that Trump owns ultimate responsibility for the hire. We can both agree it was a bad one. On the positive side, Trump didn’t follow Bolton down any war path.

So does it make more sense to keep hiring insiders because they know how to pick politically sensitive advisors, or to get some outsiders who may be a little politically uncouth to shake things up in DC. Sure looked to me like Trump for all his flaws did some better stuff than the run of the mill political clowns we've been bingeing on.