War in Ukraine

[volgr]

So, not because it's morally justified, but because - as you state - the U.S. does wrong, too.
That is some kind of sick logic or you're a Russian sympathetic too cowardly to say so.

Moral justification vs legal justification. There is a difference.

 

[red butler]

Doubt it, but if so the story would be there; you could link and we'd see if there was corroboration. Without that, it's unsubstantiated.


Not if that's what they are and depending upon their flavor of ultra-nationalism. Nationalism - patriotism - is a necessary ingredient of a stable society. Ultra-nationalism is extreme patriotism and can be unhealthy or just a very strong belief in country and its advancement.

Your willing to wager on something doesn't make it so. I've already shown Azov has support in the Jewish community, has Jewish founding, and Jews prominent in leadership. You have to square that somehow.

I agree that nationalism is important. The Azov BNs go way beyond nationalism. They’re like Trumpers and ANTIFA on crack.

You seem to hang a lot of importance on Azov being supported by Judaism. In fact, nazis hated many ethnic groups. Poles, Romas, and gypsies were all persecuted. Do you think that this form of persecution is ok because the Jews are on board?

 

[volgr]

I'm guessing you misrepresent Putin's actions at least as much as you misrepresented my position.
Not sure if it's intentional or you're just not very bright.

Own your words. There is no misrepresentation or missing context. That is what you said.

 

[red butler]

I would hope as a nation we would realize that pretty much none of that is true and is purely propaganda meant to justify our unwarranted attack on Mexico.

Like our unwarranted attack on Iraq or Libya? Unless you have proof we missed..

 

[luthervol]

Own your words. There is no misrepresentation or missing context. That is what you said.

It's not, but thanks for confirming that you cannot accurately process information.
It helps explain how you reach your conclusions.

 

[luthervol]

Like our unwarranted attack on Iraq or Libya? Unless you have proof we missed..

I seem to remember many knew it was propaganda at the time.

 

[evillawyer]

Interesting thread concerning the incredibly interesting topic of ... transport problems. Tldr summary: soon the Russians are gonna be in a world of hurt because their truck maintenance sucks ass.

 

[red butler]

Doubt it, but if so the story would be there; you could link and we'd see if there was corroboration. Without that, it's unsubstantiated

It happened.
Ukrainian rightists burn alive 39 at Odessa union building

Burning Ukraine's Protesters Alive

The only video I could find is not available in my country. Pretty convenient.

 

[red butler]

I seem to remember many knew it was propaganda at the time.

Then how is this any different ?

 

[red butler]

I would hope as a nation we would realize that pretty much none of that is true and is purely propaganda meant to justify our unwarranted attack on Mexico.

Almost all of that is true. Most of it was recorded.

 

[luthervol]

Then how is this any different ?

How is what different?
Many Russians knowing they are being thoroughly propagandized and the war is unjust?
There are certainly similarities but also vast differences.

 

[luthervol]

Almost all of that is true. Most of it was recorded.

I think the biggest and by far most important difference is the will of the majority of the people in the country.
The vast majority of the Ukrainian people obviously had no desire for regime change and perfectly happy with the system they had.

 

[red butler]

How is what different?
Many Russians knowing they are being thoroughly propagandized and the war is unjust?
There are certainly similarities but also vast differences.

Specifically, how is it different that we justify Iraq and Libya, while we criticize Russia.

For the record, I wish we had stayed out of wars in the Middle East. Most of my prime years wouldn’t have been wasted.

 

[red butler]

I think the biggest and by far most important difference is the will of the majority of the people in the country.
The vast majority of the Ukrainian people obviously had no desire for regime change and perfectly happy with the system they had.

I think there is a lot of truth in this statement. They have definitely put up a good fight.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

So if Russia is doing so badly and Ukraine is schooling them, then why is Ukraine requesting military aid from the world?

Ukraine has requested military aid. Here's how allies are providing assistance - CNNPolitics

 

[NurseGoodVol]

And what if he says if we keep arming Ukraine he will put 6 subs off of the east coast?
Or if we do not remove the sanctions?
Mutually assured destruction was intended to be the ticket to peace, not a ticket to commit war crimes with little worry of retaliation.

He hasn’t demanded that has he? The defining line is boots on the ground and planes in the airspace.
You are blurring lines. Nukes only come into play if NATO becomes involved in the ways mentioned above. To Putin it would be a direct escalation by someone he’s not at war with.
The US need not be involved physically in the conflict. They can give support, intelligence and supplies but we need to stop short of boots on the ground or NATO involvement.
Putin will sacrifice thousands and is willing to do so as seen with conscripts. You willing to sacrifice American lives over this? More death? I think most Americans think differently and would not see us in another war or further escalation in a foreign land. It is conventional war right now and nukes will never be used…. Unless we do something stupid. With this administration, it’s entirely possible.

 

[NurseGoodVol]

Why do people giver her the time of day?

Leave EL alone, she’s our Twitter star.

 

[Septic]

Like our unwarranted attack on Iraq or Libya? Unless you have proof we missed..

You, @Rasputin_Vol and @volgr need to move past this tu qoeque argument, it's completely unconvincing. Pointing out a past wrong doesn't magically absolve a new wrong, it's hard to watch you guys keep tripping over this logic.

 

[LouderVol]

Crimea has been Russian longer than Texas has been a part of America. Only because of the break up of the Soviet Union was it even still left to Ukraine.

Too bad there werent many Russians there during most of that time. The soviets got rid of the tatars shortly before WW1 so they could move in Russians.

 

[LouderVol]

They have reason, but they also have might. This is why I say Ukraine should accept a reasonable ceasefire. Then you guys lose your minds because you think a magic fairy (no not @Septic with his homo-erotic fantasies) is going to come in and save Ukraine from the inevitable ass kicking they are getting from a mightier power.

Welcome to reality, some of you should live in it. Russia tried diplomacy but Zelensky couldn't find a phone book thick enough to get his head above the table and felt embarrassed so they never showed up. Russia said to hell with and now, what do we have, some attempts at diplomacy from Ukraine.

1. What was Russia willing to give up in their good faith negotiations?
2. Russia wasnt one of the negotiating parties. They were supposed to be the third party mediator. At least that is what they claimed during all the Minsk talks.
3. Going back to 2, Give up all your land or else we have Russia invade your capital, isnt a good faith negotiation for an separatist nation. It clearly points to Russia, not the people of Donbas, having an agenda.

 

[LouderVol]

And like I've said before, that will happen when Poland gives back Danzig.

We can play this game all day.

Lolooolol. You mean Gdansk? It was found right around the first millenia as a Polish city.

It's amazing how selective you are in your history.

999-1304 it was in Polish hands
1304-1343 the Teutonic Order controlled it, yay Crusades.
1344-1793 back in Polish hands
1793-1919 it was a part of Prussia, freed, taken back, and part of the German empire until 1919
1919 to 1939 it was polish before WW2.

So 150 years out of more than 1000 as German.....

 

[LouderVol]

Moral justification vs legal justification. There is a difference.

Which do you think Putin has here?

 

[LouderVol]

I agree that nationalism is important. The Azov BNs go way beyond nationalism. They’re like Trumpers and ANTIFA on crack.

You seem to hang a lot of importance on Azov being supported by Judaism. In fact, nazis hated many ethnic groups. Poles, Romas, and gypsies were all persecuted. Do you think that this form of persecution is ok because the Jews are on board?

Link to them persecuting anyone at all before this war?

 

[DonjoVol]

I agree that nationalism is important. The Azov BNs go way beyond nationalism. They’re like Trumpers and ANTIFA on crack.

You seem to hang a lot of importance on Azov being supported by Judaism. In fact, nazis hated many ethnic groups. Poles, Romas, and gypsies were all persecuted. Do you think that this form of persecution is ok because the Jews are on board?

I think Jehovah Witnesses were the first or among the first to be persecuted. So it wasn't just ethnic groups Hitler went after. Stalin also went after Jehovah Witnesses.