Waterboarding

#26
#26
I think the fact the we more often than not, split hairs when defining who is the enemy is and who is just an average citizen that aides the actual enemy is a little old. Regualar Army under Saddam's command folded up like a WalMart tent very earlier in the initial campaign. There is no telling how many, passerby citizens/ non combatants were faced on the field of fire after they were cleared at the check points.
 
#27
#27
Volunteer_Kirby said:
Luckily that is not for you to decide.

If we detain them, then they become our responsibility. It's as simple as that. Now, there is a reason for why we take a lot of these suspected terrorists to black sites or to prisons on foreign soil. The reason is that many of the interrogation techniques are illegal on U.S. soil, so therefore a select few military officials choose to bypass U.S. law by performing the interrogation process on black sites or on foreign soil. Now I assume they do this solely for the sake of bypassing U.S. law, but I cannot know for sure. I really see no reason for it, unless they were purposely side-stepping U.S. law. Why else would they take suspected terrorists to those sites? I can tell you they don't do it because it's closer or because they want to save fuel. You look at that Samoli pirate who was flown to the U.S. just the other day - he is, by definition, a terrorist, but look at how he was treated. I don't see any outcry or disgust from the populace for sending him to U.S. to undergo a trial by jury, do you?
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The Geneva Convention has a very specific definition as to which combatants it applies to. There is some controversy over that point and for you to pretend there is a cut and dried position here, as our idiotic AG is trying to do, is dead freaking wrong. The black sites stuff is true and is specifically skirting the letter of the law, as our politicians do on a daily basis.

As a former soldier, I want every single one of the bad guys to quake in their boots about being captured for every second that they and their brethren continue to fight. I want those continuing to fight to understand full well that misery is the company that their captured brethren are keeping (rather than virgins with wine).
 
#28
#28
GASOUTHERNVOL said:
Ok so Obama has "left the door open" to go after the CIA agents that "tortured" terrorists to get information. If I am not mistaken these methods (waterboarding, sleep deprivation, forced nudity) have been used to retrieve information to prevent attacks on the United States. Why does Obama think these individuals have rights? So if we start passively questioning these terrorists, make sure that they have plenty of coffee and doughnuts and dont forget we cannot have them uncomfortable in the slightest, does that mean the terrorists are going to start passively decapitating innocent people? If waterboarding keeps me and my family safe, where do I turn the faucet?
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There is a very good reason why servicemen who have gone through SERE have experienced every one of those torture tactics. It is to prepare them for if they are captured, they will be subject to that torture. I am all for taking the high road, but when it comes to getting information that will protect this country and my family, I am all for it. For the record, the individuals that were subject to the forementioned torture refused to give up information with "conventional" methods of interrogations before the more intense methods were used.
 
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#29
#29
BearCat204 said:
There is a very good reason why servicemen who have gone through SERE have experienced everyone of those torture tactics. It is to prepare them for if they are captured, they will be subject to that torture. I am all for taking the high road, but when it comes to getting information that will protect this country and my family, I am all for it. For the record, the individuals that were subject to the forementioned torture refused to give up information with "conventional" methods of torture before the more intense methods were used.
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SERE school blows, period.
 
#31
#31
Volunteer_Kirby said:
Luckily that is not for you to decide.

If we detain them, then they become our responsibility. It's as simple as that. Now, there is a reason for why we take a lot of these suspected terrorists to black sites or to prisons on foreign soil. The reason is that many of the interrogation techniques are illegal on U.S. soil, so therefore a select few military officials choose to bypass U.S. law by performing the interrogation process on black sites or on foreign soil. Now I assume they do this solely for the sake of bypassing U.S. law, but I cannot know for sure. I really see no reason for it, unless they were purposely side-stepping U.S. law. Why else would they take suspected terrorists to those sites? I can tell you they don't do it because it's closer or because they want to save fuel. You look at that Samoli pirate who was flown to the U.S. just the other day - he is, by definition, a terrorist, but look at how he was treated. I don't see any outcry or disgust from the populace for sending him to U.S. to undergo a trial by jury, do you?
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The Somalian was a criminal. Plain and simple. And by International law, he was subject to a criminal trial in the country of the ship he offended. In no way were they attempting to make a political or religious statement. They were in it for the money.


That is very much different than a Syrian who goes to Iraq and starts killing civilians in the name of allah and blaming it on the MNFI... then using civilians as a shield in combat. In order to be subject to the Geneva Convention, they would have to have followed the "laws and customs of war". Believe it or not, there are defined laws and customs that are applicable in war.


Also, do you think the military should report it's findings to the public?
 
#33
#33
Yup, lucked out on that one, I had a Aircrew buddy that went to Maine (I think Brunswick) and he told me that the experience was a chilly one lol
 
#34
#34
BearCat204 said:
Yup, lucked out on that one, I had a Aircrew buddy that went to Maine (I think Brunswick) and he told me that the experience was a chilly one lol
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It wasn't SERE, but I got 1st Degree frostbite in my toes at Parris Island (on the Crucible in Jan.) Didn't have feeling in my big toes for about 6 months.

I can only imagine what Maine would be like.
 
#36
#36
DC Vol said:
It wasn't SERE, but I got 1st Degree frostbite in my toes at Parris Island (on the Crucible in Jan.) Didn't have feeling in my big toes for about 6 months.

I can only imagine what Maine would be like.
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there aren't many people who understand how cold it gets in coastal South Carolina. I lived near Charleston for 11 years and some of the coldest days I remember were spent there.
 
#37
#37
MG1968 said:
there aren't many people who understand how cold it gets in coastal South Carolina. I lived near Charleston for 11 years and some of the coldest days I remember were spent there.
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I have heard this from most Marines that I have served with
 
#38
#38
MG1968 said:
there aren't many people who understand how cold it gets in coastal South Carolina. I lived near Charleston for 11 years and some of the coldest days I remember were spent there.
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The night before we went on the Crucible it rained hard (so there were huge puddles). It then plunged to the high 20's and stayed there. That's before the wind chill.

Combine soaking wet clothes with wet sand, big puddles of freezing water to crawl through and 20mph (humid air) wind gusts and you have a completely miserable time.

The whole time we were berated as weak compared to the men in the Chosin Reservoir. You know what? Completely fair references, considering.
 
#39
#39
BearCat204 said:
I have heard this from most Marines that I have served with
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It really did suck. Combine that with the fact you're out in the middle of nowhere with no Brass to make sure there's no hazing... and I'll just leave it at that.

Of course, I had first wave OIF Marines in my Platoon and I had 5 DIs... so... fun times were had by all. The "would you rather get the butt end of your rifle in your face or what comes out the muzzle" phrase was used a lot.
 
#40
#40
Aw man, I LOVE water boarding! Nothing like that ocean air, sand, and sun!

I think water boarding should be mandatory for everyone!

costa_rica_surfing_6501.jpg
 
#41
#41
Volunteer_Kirby said:
Luckily that is not for you to decide.

If we detain them, then they become our responsibility. It's as simple as that. Now, there is a reason for why we take a lot of these suspected terrorists to black sites or to prisons on foreign soil. The reason is that many of the interrogation techniques are illegal on U.S. soil, so therefore a select few military officials choose to bypass U.S. law by performing the interrogation process on black sites or on foreign soil. Now I assume they do this solely for the sake of bypassing U.S. law, but I cannot know for sure. I really see no reason for it, unless they were purposely side-stepping U.S. law. Why else would they take suspected terrorists to those sites? I can tell you they don't do it because it's closer or because they want to save fuel. You look at that Samoli pirate who was flown to the U.S. just the other day - he is, by definition, a terrorist, but look at how he was treated. I don't see any outcry or disgust from the populace for sending him to U.S. to undergo a trial by jury, do you?
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So you would give the terrorists a public trial by jury? That's just not going to happen. I would bet that most of the evidence collected against these terrorists was gathered by a top secret platform or confidential sources. No one in the CIA or the military is going to give up the sources and methods that were used to gain intelligence on the terrorists. We will probably never know the extent that the detainees were involved with terrorist organizations, and I'm OK with that... I don't need to know because my family is safer.

I can remember when the milinium bomber was arrested trying to cross the Canadian border by a "routine search" while he was headed to blow up LAX. Yeah right! If you've ever crossed the Canadian border (even post 9-11) you know security is so lax that Osama Bin Laden could cross it without raising an eyebrow. I don't know how we knew he was crossing, I don't need to, but I'm certain he was not captured by a "routine stop".
 
#42
#42
The truth about waterboarding!!

Only three were water boarded and it hasn't been done since 2003.

If Barry and his idiotic brain dead administration and their flock of liberal sheeple want to worry about world opinion how about stopping for one second and considering the methodology of the opposition????????????

I am beginning we are in the process of the big bang creating a new universe, the stupidity today is almost overwhelming.

Former CIA chief; Obama has crossed a line.

Porter Goss, former CIA Director and past chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, blasted the Obama administration for releasing Justice Department memos on harsh interrogation techniques. “For the first time in my experience we’ve crossed the red line of properly protecting our national security in order to gain partisan political advantage,” Goss said in an interview.

Goss, a former CIA operative, has made few public comments since leaving his post as DCI in September 2006. In December 2007, he told a Washington Post reporter that members of Congress had been fully briefed on the CIA’s special interrogation program. “Among those being briefed, there was a pretty full understanding of what the CIA was doing,” Goss told the Post. “And the reaction in the room was not just approval, but encouragement.”
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Another radical muslim friendly Obama move; Barry wants Iran hostage suit tossed out.

The Obama administration has asked a federal judge to throw out a lawsuit against Iran filed by Americans held hostage at the U.S. Embassy in Tehran 30 years ago.

The request comes in a $6.6 billion class-action lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Washington. Fifty-two American diplomats and military officials were held captive for more than a year at the end of Jimmy Carter's presidency by a group of Islamist operatives who supported the Iranian revolution.

A similar lawsuit brought by the Iranian hostages was dismissed in 2000 after the government successfully argued it was banned by the Algiers Accords. The hostages argue that legislation passed by Congress last year and signed into law by President George W. Bush gives them the right to bring private lawsuits.

But the Justice Department argued that the law does not mention the Algiers Accords, much less explicitly repeal them.

The hostages argue that Iran supported their confinement and abuse, with visits from government officials, stays in government prisons and buildings and threats of trial in Iranian courts. The lawsuit says current Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was one of their interrogators.

The lawsuit says the hostages were tortured, beaten sometimes until they lost consciousness and kept in fear of their lives, at times even lined up in front of marksmen locking their guns. It says they were imprisoned without adequate food, clothing or medical care, blindfolded with their hands tied, interrogated for hours at a time and kept in isolation for months at a time.
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#45
#45
BigPapaVol said:
I have. You know enough to talk about it and who it covers?
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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I know that it sets the guidelines and basic protocol for warfare. I know that it also says that torture is a "war crime", which is grossly stupid term in itself.

However, we signed it. Thus, we are subject to it.
 
#46
#46
nickknx865 said:
I know that it sets the guidelines and basic protocol for warfare. I know that it also says that torture is a "war crime", which is grossly stupid term in itself.

However, we signed it. Thus, we are subject to it.
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Warfare is specific as are those offerred the protections of the Geneva Convention. We are only subject to it to the extent that it applies.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#47
#47
Here's what I'm trying to say.

Should we treat our enemies better than our own prisoners. Absolutely not, under any circumstances, should a suspected terrorist have better treatment than an American prisoner. A suspected terrorist should be confined to a small cell for 24 hours a day with nothing but just enough rations to live, but not to feel comfortable. Heck, if an interrogator wants to go all Dark Knight on some suspected terrorist, that's alright too.

However, waterboarding, making someone stand, stress positions, placing insects in terrorist's cells that we know are afraid of insects, these are all examples of torture. We're better than that. We don't need to torture people. Another question is, does torture actually work? Do people tell you the truth, or do they just tell you anything you want to hear to get out of it? I think that the jury is still out on that.
 
#48
#48
nickknx865 said:
However, waterboarding, making someone stand, stress positions, placing insects in terrorist's cells that we know are afraid of insects, these are all examples of torture. We're better than that. We don't need to torture people. Another question is, does torture actually work? Do people tell you the truth, or do they just tell you anything you want to hear to get out of it? I think that the jury is still out on that.
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Inform us of your plans to kill our innocent civilians and we'll take the bugs out of your cell. Big freaking deal. We have the CIA to determine if these admissions are credible.
 
#49
#49
kptvol said:
Inform us of your plans to kill our innocent civilians and we'll take the bugs out of your cell. Big freaking deal. We have the CIA to determine if these admissions are credible.
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Because our CIA did such a good job in figuring out that Saddam had WMD's.
 
#50
#50
nickknx865 said:
Here's what I'm trying to say.

Should we treat our enemies better than our own prisoners. Absolutely not, under any circumstances, should a suspected terrorist have better treatment than an American prisoner. A suspected terrorist should be confined to a small cell for 24 hours a day with nothing but just enough rations to live, but not to feel comfortable. Heck, if an interrogator wants to go all Dark Knight on some suspected terrorist, that's alright too.

However, waterboarding, making someone stand, stress positions, placing insects in terrorist's cells that we know are afraid of insects, these are all examples of torture. We're better than that. We don't need to torture people. Another question is, does torture actually work? Do people tell you the truth, or do they just tell you anything you want to hear to get out of it? I think that the jury is still out on that.
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Yeah, but you never known a compatriot who had his nuts cut off by the enemy or known of comrades in arms hung up, disemboweled to watch while hungry dogs eat their guts or seen friends with their heads cut off by people like Ortega.

r473224873.jpg
 
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