What if Loughner were a Muslim?

#26
#26
Come back volinbham... I want to discuss this. My curiosity on your take is very peaked.
 
#27
#27
IPorange said:
I'm honestly shocked you and others found it so. I thought it was an interesting point about how we in general tend to draw conclusions about groups from isolated incidences. It's completely applicable to this whole "conservatives are to blame" BS.
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1) I think he is co-opting this event to advance a "muslims are being stereotyped" argument. Whether they are or not is completely irrelevant to the situation.

2) I think he overstates the nonchalance that whites may feel regarding these situations - I would imagine any number of different white groups whether religious, geographic or ideological feel likewise stereotyped and do "hope he wasn't a (insert)"

3) By highlighting differences between whites (whatever that group is), muslims and other minorities he is creating an us vs them argument where the us (him) is the victim and the them (white America) is part of the problem (via it's natural stereotyping of minority groups). At a minimum, he's making the old claim that whites just don't get it - you have to be (insert minority) to understand.

4) After all this he makes a "can't we all get along" plea.

How's that?
 
#28
#28
IPorange said:
I'm honestly shocked you and others found it so. I thought it was an interesting point about how we in general tend to draw conclusions about groups from isolated incidences. It's completely applicable to this whole "conservatives are to blame" BS.
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Except he claims that it is NOT occurring in this case and only happens to minority groups.
 
#29
#29
I doubt any white people hope a suspect isn't one of them -- it's just not relevant. They don't suffer as a group because of the actions of a few bad white people such as Timothy McVeigh or Eric Rudolph.
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Perfect example - he's equating white (race) to religion (Muslim). There are white Muslims. I'm quite sure Christians (of all colors) cringe at the actions of loons doing things in the name of Christianity (Westboro) and Christians are stereotyped based on the actions of the extreme. The Christian religion is mocked daily.

If the dude was part of the TP I'm sure all other TP members would cringe and the TP would be tarred far worse than it has been.

He also imagines what a "typical white person" would think. That's as dumb as saying what a typical Muslim or Black would think - especially when there are a couple hundred million white people in the country.
 
#30
#30
volinbham said:
Perfect example - he's equating white (race) to religion (Muslim). There are white Muslims. I'm quite sure Christians (of all colors) cringe at the actions of loons doing things in the name of Christianity (Westboro) and Christians are stereotyped based on the actions of the extreme. The Christian religion is mocked daily.

If the dude was part of the TP I'm sure all other TP members would cringe and the TP would be tarred far worse than it has been.
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The Christian religion is mocked, but can you honestly see a "stop the mosque at ground zero" type thing happening. When I see a murder on the news I never have to think please don't be a white guy. It's not the same. I do think the TP would get it pretty bad though.
 
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#31
#31
Ed12111 said:
The Christian religion is mocked, but can you honestly see a "stop the mosque at ground zero" type thing happening. When I see a murder on the news I never have to think please don't be a white guy. It's not the same. I do think the TP would get it pretty bad though.
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If I see a mass killing I do stop and think I hope he's not linked to something I'm linked to because it will extend beyond that person.

Hell, this guy wasn't linked to anything but conservatives got blamed immediately.
 
#32
#32
I guess I'm not as sensitive to the "white people" stuff. I think he was more speaking in terms of religion and race, with no reference to politics whatsoever.
 
#33
#33
volinbham said:
If I see a mass killing I do stop and think I hope he's not linked to something I'm linked to because it will extend beyond that person.

Hell, this guy wasn't linked to anything but conservatives got blamed immediately.
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And liberals got blamed immediately as well. It's dumb all around.
 
#35
#35
IPorange said:
I guess I'm not as sensitive to the "white people" stuff. I think he was more speaking in terms of religion and race, with no reference to politics whatsoever.
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(Disclaimer) I'm just trying to explain my reaction here.

If he had simply written a "you don't know what it's like to be me" article that wouldn't be as bad but I'd still question why he had to drawn attention to indignities he faces when they are not really part of this story. Wrong time and place.

He doubled down by adding the "but I know what it's like to be you (white)" part which changes the argument from an "I got it bad" to a "you don't face what I face" argument. There is direct evidence to refute this in the reaction to the shooting yet he never acknowledges that a minority group (based on political ideology rather than religious ideology) was attacked as a result. A curious omission that is countervailing to his claim.

Finally, his "you don't know what it's like to be me but I know what it's like to be you" argument does not promote mutual understanding. It begins with a premise that we need to step back and consider what he's going through but he is not required to make such similar reflection. Hardly a call for engagement and tolerance when you've already determined what the other side thinks and feels but demand they challenge and re-evaluate their notions of you.

Hope that helps in your understanding of me :)
 
#36
#36
MG1968 said:
really? when?
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What do you mean when? They trotted out some former classmate who said he was a far leftist, talked about his favorite book being the communist manifesto, and a million other things. This very website had several debates whether he was right wing or left wing. Don't be dishonest.
 
#37
#37
Ed12111 said:
What do you mean when? They trotted out some former classmate who said he was a far leftist, talked about his favorite book being the communist manifesto, and a million other things. This very website had several debates whether he was right wing or left wing. Don't be dishonest.
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I don't recall this be cited as the reason he did what he did. It was more evidence to suggest he wasn't doing it because he was a right-wing nut. It was defense evidence, not prosecution evidence.
 
#38
#38
volinbham said:
I don't recall this be cited as the reason he did what he did. It was more evidence to suggest he wasn't doing it because he was a right-wing nut. It was defense evidence, not prosecution evidence.
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Considering he tried to killed a democrat, that would be the natural position, no?
 
#40
#40
Ed12111 said:
Considering he tried to killed a democrat, that would be the natural position, no?
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Was Hinckley a democrat? I don't think political orientation was part of the blame for the Reagan attempt.

If reference MG's point, I don't recall people saying he did what he did because of left leanings or left wing commentary.
 
#41
#41
Ed12111 said:
Considering he tried to killed a democrat, that would be the natural position, no?
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No. It was a blue dog democrat who had famously disappointed some of her further left base with her stances.

Furthermore, the shooter was a kook. Why are you even attempting to rationalize his actions by assuming it was politically motivated? Isn't this what you were JUST lamenting about?
 
#42
#42
IPorange said:
No. It was a blue dog democrat who had famously disappointed some of her further left base with her stances.

Furthermore, the shooter was a kook. Why are you even attempting to rationalize his actions by assuming it was politically motivated? Isn't this what you were JUST lamenting about?
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You're not getting it.
 
#43
#43
volinbham said:
Was Hinckley a democrat? I don't think political orientation was part of the blame for the Reagan attempt.

If reference MG's point, I don't recall people saying he did what he did because of left leanings or left wing commentary.
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So you're idea is that somehow only perceived conservatives are ever blamed for their actions?
 
#44
#44
volinbham said:
Was Hinckley a democrat? I don't think political orientation was part of the blame for the Reagan attempt.

If reference MG's point, I don't recall people saying he did what he did because of left leanings or left wing commentary.
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For people trying to say they don't want to make it political, you are. What does Hinckley have to do with anything? I can bring up a bunch of killers who's actions were said to brought on by political persuasions of every type. The point is, this guy was a legitimate nut, and his actions weren't influenced by anything of this world. Even if they were, I don't care. Making generalizations about people by the actions of a few isn't my thing, but you guys are just starting to sound whiney that only conservatives are blamed(which isn't even true).
 
#45
#45
Ed12111 said:
For people trying to say they don't want to make it political, you are. What does Hinckley have to do with anything? I can bring up a bunch of killers who's actions were said to brought on by political persuasions of every type. The point is, this guy was a legitimate nut, and his actions weren't influenced by anything of this world. Even if they were, I don't care. Making generalizations about people by the actions of a few isn't my thing, but you guys are just starting to sound whiney that only conservatives are blamed(which isn't even true).
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I can't make sense of this. VB specifically stated he didn't "think political orientation was part of the blame for the Reagan attempt." Moreover the boldened part is precisely what has been stated over and over in this thread for the express purpose of responding to wholly unambiguous attacks laying blame on right wing influence, certain personalities and talk radio in particular.

If one were to generalize that either side is willing to score points where they can find them then you'd actually find many here, myself included, that would agree to that general premise. However, in this particular case, there is no whining involved in the observation that connections to this nutcase and "right wing vitriol" were immediate and widespread by those on the left. I simply astounds me that you seem the least bit surprised that those on the right would defend themselves from such attacks given the complete dearth of evidence in support of such assertions.
 
#50
#50
hndog609 said:
I can't make sense of this. VB specifically stated he didn't "think political orientation was part of the blame for the Reagan attempt." Moreover the boldened part is precisely what has been stated over and over in this thread for the express purpose of responding to wholly unambiguous attacks laying blame on right wing influence, certain personalities and talk radio in particular.

If one were to generalize that either side is willing to score points where they can find them then you'd actually find many here, myself included, that would agree to that general premise. However, in this particular case, there is no whining involved in the observation that connections to this nutcase and "right wing vitriol" were immediate and widespread by those on the left. I simply astounds me that you seem the least bit surprised that those on the right would defend themselves from such attacks given the complete dearth of evidence in support of such assertions.
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The bolded part has been stated in this thread because they don't want a conservative ideology blamed. It's self-serving.
 
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