When will we stop hanging on star ratings???

#76
#76
fade route said:
Just now saw this thread, and it’s typical when you have a class that’s ranked low to have these discussions. Nothing more than an attempt by the OP to make him/herself sleep better at night over a class ranked in the high 20s. In summary OP - stars matter more than just anything else about your entire football program
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And this class won't end up in the high 20's. You know that.
 
#78
#78
maxxx said:
The goal is clearly to shoot for the top players. The point is that sometimes you can look over a 4-5 star if a lower ranked player fills the role better.
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I think star ratings overlook one important factor; ego. Some highly rated kids take the attention they get and still stay focused. Others start looking down their noses at their teammates and become a cancer. You can take a really solid player give him that fifth star, and he turns into a diva because of it.

The system exists because sports journalists want to make it easy for fans to follow recruiting. Any decent coach will tell you they don't pay attention to the number of stars. The system doesn't accurately measure work ethic, character, and often talent. How often have stars been gained because of how a player performed against weak teams?

However, there is one advantage to having the system. When you hear someone harp on stars too much in recruiting discussion, you know you are very likely dealing with an idiot.
 
#79
#79
fade route said:
Just now saw this thread, and it’s typical when you have a class that’s ranked low to have these discussions. Nothing more than an attempt by the OP to make him/herself sleep better at night over a class ranked in the high 20s. In summary OP - stars matter more than just anything else about your entire football program
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This is what I did to make myself sleep better. :)

Rivals scores the top 20 players in a class so I ranked everyone's class by points per player and we were sitting at #17 last night. I think we'll probably move up a little bit more once our class fills out.

ScreenHunter_01 Dec. 22 10.20.jpg
 
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#80
#80
maxxx said:
Every year I say this and every year Volnation downplays it. When will most of Volnation wake up and stop rating the success of a class on star ratings? A string of top ten classes got us to 0-8 on the field. Meanwhile, Wisconsin continues to be a top ten team with classes rated in the 40's-50's. It's about getting kids that fit into the coaches system and kids who can develop. 90% of a freshman class should be redshirted, IMO. I want to see kids that understand the game, know their assignments, and are physically ready for big boy football.
I think people should study a program that can turn two high school quarterbacks into all conference, NFL ready LB and OT respectively.

I don't give a damn were our class ranks, I want be able to see those kids in two years helping the team compete for titles.
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Who is competing for a title without top classes?
 
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#81
#81
What the crux of the matter in regards to UT is that a Top 25 class *this* year should be met with reserved, yet optimistic views by the fanbase. To know that the following things happened to us in 2017:

1.) Six very important pieces were drafted in the NFL draft (Barnett, Kamara, Dobbs, Sutton, Malone, Reeves-Maybin)
2.) Injuries decimated us for the 2nd year in a row. Losing Kirkland Jr and Jennings were already two nails into the coffin of our season early on.
3.) Butch Jones, without Josh Dobbs, was exposed as a poor player development coach, poor game management coach, and poor staff management coach.
4.) We finish 4-8, the worst season in UT history.
5.) We fire Butch Jones. Despite his firing being deserved, anytime this happens you can pretty much expect recruiting to take a nose-dive.
6.) We had John Currie as AD. The man nearly set us back two decades with the hiring of Greg Schiano.
7.) As a fanbase, we became Public Enemy #1 of the media because of our "outrage" / desire to see a winning coach/program re-established here with our lineage and tradition.
8.) After an exhausting search, we finally hired Jeremy Pruitt.

This whole process should've seen us struggling to crack the Top 40 in recruiting. But here we are, with another 5 weeks to add a few more pieces to this class and possibly have a Top 20 class in the country, after ALL that.

Now next year, our recruiting goals will be higher. But from the looks of it, and based on the talent that has signed with us so far, CJP's goals are pretty high too.
 
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#82
#82
EricFreakingBerry said:
What the crux of the matter in regards to UT is that a Top 25 class *this* year should be met with reserved, yet optimistic views by the fanbase. To know that the following things happened to us in 2017:

1.) Six very important pieces were drafted in the NFL draft (Barnett, Kamara, Dobbs, Sutton, Malone, Reeves-Maybin)
2.) Injuries decimated us for the 2nd year in a row. Losing Kirkland Jr and Jennings were already two nails into the coffin of our season early on.
3.) Butch Jones, without Josh Dobbs, was exposed as a poor player development coach, poor game management coach, and poor staff management coach.
4.) We finish 4-8, the worst season in UT history.
5.) We fire Butch Jones. Despite his firing being deserved, anytime this happens you can pretty much expect recruiting to take a nose-dive.
6.) We had John Currie as AD. The man nearly set us back two decades with the hiring of Greg Schiano.
7.) As a fanbase, we became Public Enemy #1 of the media because of our "outrage" / desire to see a winning coach/program re-established here with our lineage and tradition.
8.) After an exhausting search, we finally hired Jeremy Pruitt.

This whole process should've seen us struggling to crack the Top 40 in recruiting. But here we are, with another 5 weeks to add a few more pieces to this class and possibly have a Top 20 class in the country, after ALL that.

Now next year, our recruiting goals will be higher. But from the looks of it, and based on the talent that has signed with us so far, CJP's goals are pretty high too.
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You forgot the biggest issue. The early signing day. If given additional time, I think we would've benefited greatly.

But I still think we end up too 25, but it'll be close. A lot of guys have already signed
 
#83
#83
maxxx said:
Every year I say this and every year Volnation downplays it. When will most of Volnation wake up and stop rating the success of a class on star ratings? A string of top ten classes got us to 0-8 on the field. Meanwhile, Wisconsin continues to be a top ten team with classes rated in the 40's-50's. It's about getting kids that fit into the coaches system and kids who can develop. 90% of a freshman class should be redshirted, IMO. I want to see kids that understand the game, know their assignments, and are physically ready for big boy football.
I think people should study a program that can turn two high school quarterbacks into all conference, NFL ready LB and OT respectively.

I don't give a damn were our class ranks, I want be able to see those kids in two years helping the team compete for titles.
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You can say it every year all you want but you'll still be wrong every year. Of the last 10 teams to sign 6 or more 5-star players in one year six have gone on to win a National Championship in the next 4 years. The seventh team, Alabama, still has another 3 years to accomplish this feat. Soooo ... how many National Championships has Wisconsin won lately with recruiting classes ranked in the 40's and 50's?

For me, I'll take a bunch of 5 stars every year and take my chances. :rock:
 
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#84
#84
Vol8188 said:
You forgot the biggest issue. The early signing day. If given additional time, I think we would've benefited greatly.

But I still think we end up too 25, but it'll be close. A lot of guys have already signed
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Absolutely an issue, but honestly in a couple of our JUCO signings, I think the Early Signing actually helped. Dominick Wood-Anderson for example. He comes across to me as a "whatever strikes my fancy currently" kind of kid. If early signing wasn't an option, I think we struggle to get him here in February.

They were saying on the radio that about 60% of the top rated guys have already signed. So yes, that does put us behind a bit. But if Pruitt can bring in a few more 4 star level players and finish the class with scheme fits that he can actually DEVELOP (improving upon Butch's worst trait) then it's a successful class at the end of the day, even if it means we sit at 26th or something.
 
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#85
#85
Considering that schools like Bammer have more 5 stars than anyone else and you don't see UCF or even Nebraska competing for the playoffs, I'd say the star system is pretty important.

Butch, unfortunately, seemed to get stars that didn't fit his "infallible" system. Particularly on the offensive line. Star evaluations are usually pretty accurate. But nothing replaces a coach evaluation from someone who knows how to develop talent.

Prime example, Rick Barnes and his current team of three stars.
 
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#86
#86
Example - LB Dillon Bates - 5* - never saw the field at UT
Example - DB Camerson Sutton - 3* - playing in the NFL
 
#87
#87
Vol_til_I_die said:
When we get a staff in that can develop 3 and 4 stars.
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Before Fulmer became AD, he was on "Coach to Coach" a show Doug Matthews does and he talked about some 4 star guys are topped out with their development when you get them and you can find some 3 star players who just need time to get stronger and gain size and they can develop into "5 star"/dynamic players in your program. Star rating is nice, but so many players take time to develop and if you have a program that is good at doing that (hopefully CJP and staff will be) you can outpace where your "star rating" in initial recruiting had you.
 
#89
#89
GVol1966 said:
Antonio Brown , one of NFL’s best WR had 0 stars out of high school,
So Stars=talent??
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No one will argue that there are no exceptions. Obviously some players have pleasantly surprised while others have disappointed. I'll give you a team made up of 0 stars and I'll take a team of 5 stars. I'd bet $100 to your donut that my team wins 10/10 times. Stars matter.
 
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#90
#90
Everybody says look at Ala, OSU, Ga. Champs have 5* players. I agree to a point.
More higher rated players add depth quickly. Greatly helps with JR declaring for draft. More important at skill positions, as older linemen are probably still stronger and more mature even if rated lower.
On the other hand.
The champ schools also have the best coaches so which is more important? Right before Meyer left Fl, he signed the highest rated recruiting class ever up to that time. Muschamp never won with those players. Saban won his 2nd year at Ala before all his #1 classes. Chip Kelly won at Oregon without top 10 classes. OU rarely has top 10 classes. USC w has top 10 classes and they haven't been winning NCs.
The problem is being in the SEC. The SEC is basically a football conference, so most of the schools are going all out to hire the best coaches, recruiters, facilities. In the Big 10 you can win your Division without top 10 classes, not so much in the SEC.
I still believe coaching is more important than talent.
 
#91
#91
maxxx said:
Every year I say this and every year Volnation downplays it. When will most of Volnation wake up and stop rating the success of a class on star ratings? A string of top ten classes got us to 0-8 on the field. Meanwhile, Wisconsin continues to be a top ten team with classes rated in the 40's-50's. It's about getting kids that fit into the coaches system and kids who can develop. 90% of a freshman class should be redshirted, IMO. I want to see kids that understand the game, know their assignments, and are physically ready for big boy football.
I think people should study a program that can turn two high school quarterbacks into all conference, NFL ready LB and OT respectively.

I don't give a damn were our class ranks, I want be able to see those kids in two years helping the team compete for titles.
Click to expand...

When someone wins a national championship with no 4 or 5 stars.
 
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#92
#92
maxxx said:
Every year I say this and every year Volnation downplays it. When will most of Volnation wake up and stop rating the success of a class on star ratings? A string of top ten classes got us to 0-8 on the field. Meanwhile, Wisconsin continues to be a top ten team with classes rated in the 40's-50's. It's about getting kids that fit into the coaches system and kids who can develop. 90% of a freshman class should be redshirted, IMO. I want to see kids that understand the game, know their assignments, and are physically ready for big boy football.
I think people should study a program that can turn two high school quarterbacks into all conference, NFL ready LB and OT respectively.

I don't give a damn were our class ranks, I want be able to see those kids in two years helping the team compete for titles.
Click to expand...

Recruiting class rankings and championships go hand in hand, period.
 
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#94
#94
The stars matters look at the last 10 NC teams plus look at the teams that make the playoffs, you need to be in the top 10 every year to compete for a championship, now a team in a weak conference can get by having a team between 10 and 20 every year, we can't just look at Wednesday, you can't judge coach this year because when he took the job but if somehow he and staff pulls a top 15 or 16 in, then thats all i need to know and i think he has a very good shot of pulling that of.
 
#95
#95
What's funny is how people keep pretending as if recruiting is all or nothing. Never once did I say that you don't recruit the higher rated players. The point I'm making is that stars don't define the players or the teams success.
I just saw a thread mentioning the need for a LB. In a perfect world we would luv to see a 5 star stud fill that slot. The reality should be that an LB that fits the teams vision should suffice no matter the stars. If we want a 250 lbs thumper at LB, then signing a 240 lbs kid that plays downhill and fits the mold should be viewed as a positive. Too many times people here would view that as a bad signing, when that kid is most likely going to be a starter because he fits the mold for what we want. That's why Florida and UT suck right now. Loaded with talent that did not fit the mold.
 
#97
#97
Does all this even matter all that much? Oh, absolutely. At this point, there’s little doubt that recruiting rankings are worthwhile at the big-picture level, despite those (wonderful!) success stories that always spring to mind about two-stars overcoming the odds and getting drafted in the first round.

They matter at the player level. Blue chips are almost 1,000 percent more likely to be drafted in the first round. You can see the star ratings drop throughout the NFL draft. And five-stars are about 33 times as likely to be All-Americans as two-stars are.

They matter at the team level. Matt Hinton broke the country into five tiers of recruiting might, finding the higher-recruiting schools to consistently beat their lessers virtually across the board.

They matter at the championship level. Every national champion of the ratings era has passed a specific recruiting benchmark, as Bud Elliott’s Blue-Chip Ratio annually demonstrates.

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football-recruiting/2017/12/20/16791986/early-national-signing-day-2018-period-best-recruits-available
 
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#98
#98
utvols74 said:
Example - LB Dillon Bates - 5* - never saw the field at UT
Example - DB Camerson Sutton - 3* - playing in the NFL
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Where in the heck was Dillon Bates rated a 5* player? Stop making things up to try and prove your point
 
#99
#99
People who think star rankings matter need to remember that Colton Jumper was a 2 star walk on and he was the reason we had the # 1 defense in the SEC the past 2 years.
 
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