Where is the conservative outrage over this expense?

[IPorange]

Nope. I already said that if you could convince a majority in a state to extend the privilege of legal marriage to homosexuals that I would disagree with that decision but respect your right to do so. (FTR- sayings someone does not qualify for a privilege DOES NOT infringe on their rights or liberties.)

However it will create a situation of whose ox is going to be gored. What about the Christian business owner who provides spousal benefits to his employees. What happens to his legitimate religious rights when a homosexual spouse shows up and demands those same benefits? Will you then argue that he must subordinate his genuine, constitutionally guaranteed right to freedom of conscience?




From a religious perspective, legal perspective, or theocratic perspective?

I wasn't aware that discrimination was okay if it were under religious pretenses. I hope what happens in that case is that the homosexual couple sues the holy hell right out of that bigoted business owner, and ends up running the place.

How the followers of Jesus Christ have become so twisted and hateful, I'll never know. Render unto Caesar's what is Caesar's. That applies to the indiscriminate ideals of this country.

My "guaranteed right to freedom of conscience" lends me to stamp out intolerance and discrimination where ever I find it, so I guess we have reached a conflict of rights on that one.

By the way, where is "guaranteed right to freedom of conscience" in the US constitution? I know it's in the Canadian Charter and some of the EU's documents, but I didn't know it was in the US constitution.



Even asking whether I would want to hear about religion in a "theocratic" or "religious" perspective proves my point: Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on marriage. It existed BEFORE Christianity, BEFORE Judiaism, and still exists in forms throughout the world uninfluenced by Western traditions. Marriage is a human institution, not solely a religious one.

 

[BigPapaVol]

It isn't a suspicion that homosexuality is deviant or lesser in a moral sense... it is an absolute conviction.

I vehemently disagree with the notion that homosexuality is a legitimate expression of sexuality. However, I believe fully that others have the right to not only disagree but engage in that behavior if they so choose. But their rights end at the tip of my nose just as mine end at the tip of theirs.

Theirs apparently end at the right to buy a marriage license, which you happen to enjoy.

I will not invade or ask the state to invade their homes to catch them. I will not ask the state to diminish any of their God given rights. I will not demand that they hire me at their business if they disagree with my religiously derived morality... and expect the same in return.

Live and let live.

Denying marriage rights is anything but live and let live. Implying that you know why they're homosexual and how their relationships are built is the height of arrogance and anything but live and let live.

 

[sjt18]

what about the owner that thinks that interracial marriage is immoral?

Race as Powell said is a benign characteristic. It does not define someone's worth as a human being no more than being left handed does.

That case SPECIFICALLY deals with how we deal with INDIVIDUALS that have rights as individuals... and specifically NOT because they share some common behavior with someone else.

In the case of homosexuals, you have people who are basing a demand for all sorts of privileges and preferrences on the simple fact that they have chosen to have sex with each other.

 

[tigervol9802]

40 years from now i bet we say the same thing about homosexual marriage.

I'll disagree. Most logical Christians will admit that the church's stance on slavery/interracial marriage was wrong.

I really don't ever see that happening with homosexual marriage. I do think the numbers will increase that approve of it, but it will never totally go away in the way interracial marriage has.

 

[utvolpj]

I really don't ever see that happening with homosexual marriage. I do think the numbers will increase that approve of it, but it will never totally go away in the way interracial marriage has.

it's still not gone because new idiots are born everyday

 

[BigPapaVol]

i have never seen a study by any reputable research compnay that has shown that homosexuals can willingly become heterosexuals. and trust me, many would gladly make that decision if possible. a simple look at the massive failures of religious groups trying to change this behavior is enough.

you don't think that homosexual teens commit suicide at enormous rates because they decide to be gay? Crazy.

Funny how that statistic was left out of the social stats section regarding child rearing.

 

[IPorange]

i have never seen a study by any reputable research compnay that has shown that homosexuals can willingly become heterosexuals. and trust me, many would gladly make that decision if possible. a simple look at the massive failures of religious groups trying to change this behavior is enough.

because it doesn't exist. I've seen studies about the damage the Religious Right does to the mental well-being of homosexuals who they try and force to "convert" to heterosexuality.

 

[droski]

Race as Powell said is a benign characteristic. It does not define someone's worth as a human being no more than being left handed does.

That case SPECIFICALLY deals with how we deal with INDIVIDUALS that have rights as individuals... and specifically NOT because they share some common behavior with someone else.

In the case of homosexuals, you have people who are basing a demand for all sorts of privileges and preferrences on the simple fact that they have chosen to have sex with each other.

are you with your significant other simply just because you want to have sex with them?

 

[droski]

I'll disagree. Most logical Christians will admit that the church's stance on slavery/interracial marriage was wrong.

I really don't ever see that happening with homosexual marriage. I do think the numbers will increase that approve of it, but it will never totally go away in the way interracial marriage has.

there are many christian churches here in california that accept and marry gay members. some even have gay pastors. times are a changin.

 

[sjt18]

Denying marriage rights is anything but live and let live.

There is no such thing as a right to marry. Period. There never has been at any point in history. In fact, for much of history and even today in some cultures, marriage isn't a choice at all. It is a binding arrangement between family heads.

Implying that you know why they're homosexual and how their relationships are built is the height of arrogance and anything but live and let live.

No it isn't. Regardless of why they're homosexual or how their relationships are built... I will be "tolerant" of them... live and let live... while continuing to disagree and with a right to NOT associate with each other.

Even if you reject biblical moral teachings which are time tested, there is abundant research concerning the environmental factors that play into homosexuality.

FWIW, the Christian concept of a sin nature IS innate and individual. I do not deny the possibility that some people are more inclined to homosexuality from birth... just as some might be toward some other sinful behavior.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Race as Powell said is a benign characteristic. It does not define someone's worth as a human being no more than being left handed does.

an argument steeped singularly in the idea that homosexuals choose their urges.

That case SPECIFICALLY deals with how we deal with INDIVIDUALS that have rights as individuals... and specifically NOT because they share some common behavior with someone else.

In the case of homosexuals, you have people who are basing a demand for all sorts of privileges and preferrences on the simple fact that they have chosen to have sex with each other.

The "simply have chosen to have sex with each other" is absurdly simplistic, but can be applied to every couple on earth. Every single one.

 

[IPorange]

Race as Powell said is a benign characteristic. It does not define someone's worth as a human being no more than being left handed does.

That case SPECIFICALLY deals with how we deal with INDIVIDUALS that have rights as individuals... and specifically NOT because they share some common behavior with someone else.

In the case of homosexuals, you have people who are basing a demand for all sorts of privileges and preferrences on the simple fact that they have chosen to have sex with each other.

Your fundamental assumptions are deeply flawed. Why in hell would anyone choose to be part of a minority group that is constantly mocked, degraded, and discriminated?

 

[tigervol9802]

I wasn't aware that discrimination was okay if it were under religious pretenses. I hope what happens in that case is that the homosexual couple sues the holy hell right out of that bigoted business owner, and ends up running the place.

How the followers of Jesus Christ have become so twisted and hateful, I'll never know. Render unto Caesar's what is Caesar's. That applies to the indiscriminate ideals of this country.

My "guaranteed right to freedom of conscience" lends me to stamp out intolerance and discrimination where ever I find it, so I guess we have reached a conflict of rights on that one.

By the way, where is "guaranteed right to freedom of conscience" in the US constitution? I know it's in the Canadian Charter and some of the EU's documents, but I didn't know it was in the US constitution.



Even asking whether I would want to hear about religion in a "theocratic" or "religious" perspective proves my point: Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on marriage. It existed BEFORE Christianity, BEFORE Judiaism, and still exists in forms throughout the world uninfluenced by Western traditions. Marriage is a human institution, not solely a religious one.

Unless in your belief steructure you believe God made the world and instituted marriage with Adam and Eve....

So homosexual couples can have the freedom to marry but a Christian can't have the freedom to believe it is wrong?

 

[tigervol9802]

there are many christian churches here in california that accept and marry gay members. some even have gay pastors. times are a changin.

And from a solely Christian/religous standpoint you really don't want to get me started on that nor will I because I don't want to fend off 1,000 different posts from all directions.

 

[utvolpj]

So homosexual couples can have the freedom to marry but a Christian can't have the freedom to believe it is wrong?

you have that freedom just don't try to legislate your intolerance

 

[droski]

FWIW, the Christian concept of a sin nature IS innate and individual. I do not deny the possibility that some people are more inclined to homosexuality from birth... just as some might be toward some other sinful behavior.

many churches believe that not believing in god is also sinful behavior. last time i checked it wasn't illegal to be an athiest. and i very much doubt that you yourself are without sin.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Denying marriage rights is anything but live and let live.
There is no such thing as a right to marry. Period.

No it isn't.

Even if you reject biblical moral teachings which are time tested, there is abundant research concerning the environmental factors that play into homosexuality.

FWIW, the Christian concept of a sin nature IS innate and individual. I do not deny the possibility that some people are more inclined to homosexuality from birth... just as some might be toward some other sinful behavior.

Yes it is. There is no right to marry, but somehow you got it done. Your abitrary code of morality regarding couples is the sole reason you advocate denying that exact right to others. That's not American. That's the Pope's gig.


Measuring inclination toward sin is a fool's game. Broadly pronouncing all homosexuals as morally bankrupt is arrogance. Biblical teachings, by design, aren't a part of our lawmaking process and should have nothing to do with the right of couples to purchase a marriage license. Backwoods Christian Coalition bigotry is driving this entire train. It's a wonder clowns in the South don't still wear Scarlet As.

 

[IPorange]

Unless in your belief steructure you believe God made the world and instituted marriage with Adam and Eve....

So homosexual couples can have the freedom to marry but a Christian can't have the freedom to believe it is wrong?

Well that would be absurd and ignore a whole lot of anthropology and archaeology, wouldn't it? You might as well tell me I imagined the dinosaur fossils I saw at the Smithsonian.

 

[tigervol9802]

you have that freedom just don't try to legislate your intolerance

What about business owners?

 

[tigervol9802]

Well that would be absurd and ignore a whole lot of anthropology and archaeology, wouldn't it? You might as well tell me I imagined the dinosaur fossils I saw at the Smithsonian.

So people shouldn't have the freedom to believe what they want despite evidence to the contrary?

Are you basically saying people can be free to believe what you want and not otherwise?

 

[sjt18]

there are many christian churches here in california that accept and marry gay members. some even have gay pastors. times are a changin.

Sadly this is true. It isn't right but it is true.

People call themselves "Christian" while contradicting the very defining principles of what it means to be "Christian". Simply stated, "Christian" was an accusation, a byword, mockery of people who pursued Christ likeness. They did this in stark contrast to Jewish legalism and Greek hedonism.

Those early Christians died rather than sacrifice faith and principle... modern "Christians" are selling their souls for far less.

 

[droski]

And from a solely Christian/religous standpoint you really don't want to get me started on that nor will I because I don't want to fend off 1,000 different posts from all directions.

i could decry quite a few things considered completely acceptable by fundamental christians that christians do that are not in accordance with a a couple of sentances in the bible. the question is why these few pasages are the ones you focus on and you ignore others?

 

[BigPapaVol]

Unless in your belief steructure you believe God made the world and instituted marriage with Adam and Eve....

but that doesn't mean you get to legislate your biblical morality on US citizens.

So homosexual couples can have the freedom to marry but a Christian can't have the freedom to believe it is wrong?

You can believe it wrong forever, just like you can adultery, but you don't get to legislate that morality, which is what is happening here. The arguments against it are patently un-American.

 

[sjt18]

Well that would be absurd and ignore a whole lot of anthropology and archaeology, wouldn't it? You might as well tell me I imagined the dinosaur fossils I saw at the Smithsonian.

Most of what you see in most dinosaur displays is plaster or composites... not fossilized bone from one animal.

 

[utvolpj]

What about business owners?

what about them?