Where is the conservative outrage over this expense?

[droski]

So people shouldn't have the freedom to believe what they want despite evidence to the contrary?

Are you basically saying people can be free to believe what you want and not otherwise?

you have the freedom to believe and do whatever you want until it starts infringing on other people. i can believe your lawn sucks, but once i start digging it up than there is a problem.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Most of what you see in most dinosaur displays is plaster or composites... not fossilized bone from one animal.

nice. The earth is 6K years old too.

 

[IPorange]

So people shouldn't have the freedom to believe what they want despite evidence to the contrary?

Are you basically saying people can be free to believe what you want and not otherwise?

You can believe whatever fairy tale or mythos your heart desires. You can not discriminate against other people, or force them to your standard of beliefs. You keep mentioning business owners who might not agree with homosexuality. So the F what? They have to treat human beings equally.

If that is somehow counter to one's Christian beliefs:

1. They should re-evaluate their interpretation of the Bible

2. They should re-evaluate why one would choose to believe something so obviously archaic and fantastical


The anti-homosexuality movement is just hate and evil. Nothing else.

 

[IPorange]

Most of what you see in most dinosaur displays is plaster or composites... not fossilized bone from one animal.

Ok. relevance?

 

[tigervol9802]

what about them?

There is a difference between legislate and offerign benefits as a company.

FWIW, I doubt an openly gay person would want to work for a small business that truly feels that way under the current enviornment.

 

[sjt18]

Your fundamental assumptions are deeply flawed. Why in hell would anyone choose to be part of a minority group that is constantly mocked, degraded, and discriminated?

I do not know. Why would a young black girl in SC LA choose to have a baby by a gang banger? Why would a middle class suburban house wife sacifice everything and become a meth addict? Why do/did homosexual men frequent bath houses engaging in anonomous sex with multiple partners knowing the health risks? Why would a President have sex with an intern knowing that it could cost him the Presidency?

Your saying my assumptions are flawed neither proves they are assumptions nor proves them false. If you want to argue a point then do so... You don't prove anything by simply dismissing what you disagree with.

 

[IPorange]

Unless in your belief steructure you believe God made the world and instituted marriage with Adam and Eve....

So homosexual couples can have the freedom to marry but a Christian can't have the freedom to believe it is wrong?

Does your wife leave town when she menstruates? Just curious, since the Bible calls for that.

Hope you don't eat shellfish.



Oh wait, I know. That's the OLD covenant. Whew, glad you got a new deal on that one. The first one sucked.

 

[IPorange]

I do not know. Why would a young black girl in SC LA choose to have a baby by a gang banger? Why would a middle class suburban house wife sacifice everything and become a meth addict? Why do/did homosexual men frequent bath houses engaging in anonomous sex with multiple partners knowing the health risks? Why would a President have sex with an intern knowing that it could cost him the Presidency?

Your saying my assumptions are flawed neither proves they are assumptions nor proves them false. If you want to argue a point then do so... You don't prove anything by simply dismissing what you disagree with.

You assume homosexuals have a choice. Based on what? Am I to assume YOU feel attracted to young muscular men, but choose to not act on it? Hmm? Is this a personal testimonial about just saying "no" to "homo?"

 

[BigPapaVol]

There is a difference between legislate and offerign benefits as a company.

legislating is what the Christian Coalition loonies are pushing for now. They actually want a law defining marriage so that those issuing licenses can discriminate by law. As to the benefits, arbitrarily excluding gay couples makes no sense.

FWIW, I doubt an openly gay person would want to work for a small business that truly feels that way under the current enviornment.

But they should have the same protections under law that every other subjected class has.

 

[sjt18]

nice. The earth is 6K years old too.

Recorded history is roughly 6000-10000 years.

What happened prior to that is ALWAYS speculation built upon presuppositions. I presuppose a creative God. I presuppose a God full well powerful enough to have created everything yesterday to include the memories you think you have.

The theory of origins you believe in also has presuppositions founded in a governing metaphysical philosophy.

The facts CAN be argued. Only someone completely blinded by or blind of their presuppositions would ever say anything different.

 

[volinbham]

A few thoughts:

Marriage is both a contractual arrangement with certain benefits/restrictions sanctioned by a government and it is a social institutions imbued with meaning and symbolism that goes well beyond what the government sanctions.

Neither of the above are "rights". The first is a priviledge. The second doesn't reside within the government at all. It is a societal creation and society creates the meaning.

Civil unions can be crafted to extend the same government sanctioned rights and restrictions to same sex couples, poly-couples, or whatever but until society changes the "meaning of marriage" as being between a man and a woman same sex marriages will be marriages in name only.

I agree with SJT that some of this is an effort by same sex couples to force others to accept their relationship as being no different than that of a hetero couple but ultimately, such acceptance is not subject to government -- it is subject to society.

Given the above, I've still not seen compelling arguments why same-sex relationships should be considered marriages but poly-relationships should not.

Finally, I'm guessing that within a generation society will embrace same-sex relationships as being "married" in the larger sense of the word.

 

[IPorange]

Recorded history is roughly 6000-10000 years.

What happened prior to that is ALWAYS speculation built upon presuppositions. I presuppose a creative God. I presuppose a God full well powerful enough to have created everything yesterday to include the memories you think you have.

The theory of origins you believe in also has presuppositions founded in a governing metaphysical philosophy.

The facts CAN be argued. Only someone completely blinded by or blind of their presuppositions would ever say anything different.

So you basically believe The Matrix was real?

 

[sjt18]

You assume homosexuals have a choice. Based on what?

I specifically said that I do NOT know whether they choose their impulses or not. But yes. They do choose to have sex or not to have sex. That is pure CHOICE unless we are talking about some sort of rape or manipulation. If you are hetero you likewise have a choice... as several here have pointed out.

Am I to assume YOU feel attracted to young muscular men, but choose to not act on it? Hmm? Is this a personal testimonial about just saying "no" to "homo?"

Do you think you are being clever? You aren't. I do not have those desires but if I did... I could choose to act on them or not act on them. I could choose to cheat on my wife. The impulse has been there. I choose not to.

 

[sjt18]

So you basically believe The Matrix was real?

No. I simply challenged his assumption with something that is plausible if his presuppositions about reality are wrong.

Folks like you seem to enjoy claiming open mindedness... but really aren't. I know a great deal about what other people believe and why. I've chosen to educate myself... then I've chosen what I believe to be the Truth.

My worldview my be repulsive to you. That's fine. But my worldview to the best of my ability to challenge and prove it is consistent with itself as well as the plain factual experiences/evidences of the world we live in.

 

[tigervol9802]

You can believe whatever fairy tale or mythos your heart desires. You can not discriminate against other people, or force them to your standard of beliefs. You keep mentioning business owners who might not agree with homosexuality. So the F what? They have to treat human beings equally.

If that is somehow counter to one's Christian beliefs:

1. They should re-evaluate their interpretation of the Bible

2. They should re-evaluate why one would choose to believe something so obviously archaic and fantastical


The anti-homosexuality movement is just hate and evil. Nothing else.

That's very intolerent and closed-minded view. But alas it is what you believe so I will accept or respect that.

 

[Brog]

Threads like these are why the political forum exists.

 

[IPorange]

I have a closed mind because I reject viewing the world through the pages of a particular several thousand year old book. Okay.

I have a closed mind because I think it is silly to assume there is a God who wants us all to believe and worship in him under pain of eternal torture, but loves us, but also creates an elaborate universe whose every system points to it being billions of years old and self-forging, but is actually only a few thousand years old and just made to look older. You know, for that "classic antique" look. -- and does not actually physically reveal himself to us. Alright.

I have a closed mind because I think hating and discriminating against someone because of their sexual orientation is wrong, and think it's utterly ridiculous that someone would feel that they are justified in their discrimination because of what some old book written thousands of years before half a world away had something bad to say on the subject. Whatever.


That is what we call "projection."

 

[tigervol9802]

I have a closed mind because I reject viewing the world through the pages of a particular several thousand year old book. Okay.

I have a closed mind because I think it is silly to assume there is a God who wants us all to believe and worship in him under pain of eternal torture, but loves us, but also creates an elaborate universe whose every system points to it being billions of years old and self-forging, but is actually only a few thousand years old and just made to look older. You know, for that "classic antique" look. -- and does not actually physically reveal himself to us. Alright.

I have a closed mind because I think hating and discriminating against someone because of their sexual orientation is wrong, and think it's utterly ridiculous that someone would feel that they are justified in their discrimination because of what some old book written thousands of years before half a world away had something bad to say on the subject. Whatever.


That is what we call "projection."

And this is what we call "denial". You're closed-mindedness stems from the fact that you don't think it's ok for someone to have this view. There's a lot of hate spweing from your posts about it. It's ok. You are not the first to say this and won't be the last.

 

[IPorange]

And this is what we call "denial". You're closed-mindedness stems from the fact that you don't think it's ok for someone to have this view. There's a lot of hate spweing from your posts about it. It's ok. You are not the first to say this and won't be the last.

I'm just bullying the bully. Frankly, it's not okay to call someone else's sexual orientation "sinful." It's deeply troubling to hear arguments centered upon respecting the beliefs of the poor homophobe business owner. As if we should be watching out for his bigotry lest it get infringed upon. I would speak up just as forcefully if someone wanted to discriminate against Christians. Discrimination and the infringement of one group's rights by another's beliefs can't be allowed to go unopposed.

 

[sjt18]

You can believe whatever fairy tale or mythos your heart desires. You can not discriminate against other people, or force them to your standard of beliefs.

You can as well... and you can't either.

You keep mentioning business owners who might not agree with homosexuality. So the F what? They have to treat human beings equally.

So IOW's they cannot believe whatever they want and you CAN discriminate against them and force them to comply with your standard of beliefs, right?

I have no problem whatsoever with a homosexual or a sympathetic company saying there's no place with them for someone who holds moral convictions contrary to theirs. I disagree but respect the right of companies to offer benefits to homosexual partners.

I do have a problem with people like you demanding thta those with different convictions cannot do what they believe is right.

If that is somehow counter to one's Christian beliefs:

1. They should re-evaluate their interpretation of the Bible

Really? Teach us teacher. This ought to be "fun". Tell us how we ought to interpret Romans 1... it isn't really open to interpretation very much. It isn't ambiguous. Both in the normal reading AND in the context of the time it was written... it declares homosexuality to be immoral and the net result of man's vain rejection of God and godliness.

2. They should re-evaluate why one would choose to believe something so obviously archaic and fantastical

Ah, truth is to be measured and rejected on the basis of how long it has been believed and in spite of the contributions it has made to civilization?

Fantastical? If you would like to get into it, I have asked a question many times of those who believe in naturalism/evolution... a question of simple, straightforward logic. The only well-reasoned answer I have ever gotten is "I don't know but believe there is an answer".

The anti-homosexuality movement is just hate and evil. Nothing else.

There are people who hate homosexuals and commit acts of violence against them. There a vile anti-Christians like Westboro Baptist who shame genuine Bible believing Christians.

That said, you are absolutely, positively wrong. There is nothing inherently "hateful" about disagreeing with someone. I challenge you to find and document wholesale abuse of homosexuals at the hands of conservative Christians.

There is nothing any more evil about opposing a belief/behavior and discouraging its acceptance if you believe that it does terrible harm to people than if you were discouraging someone from playing chicken with city buses. Sometimes the most loving thing you can possibly do is disagree with someone and oppose them. Making someone angry is not the measure of whether you are acting lovingly toward them or not.

You can believe what you like but it is alien to the actual facts to believe that homosexuality is a harmless behavior. The medical evidence is absolutely overwhelming.

 

[OrangeYankee]

This is they the Government at large needs to get out of the marriage business all together. It makes no sense. As far as the legal implications (estates,having a say over medical choices, etc) that should be in a contract or document much like a will. Heck just civil unions across the board that are nothing more than a legal document stating that these two folks legally declare they are "together."

Let the marriage tradition and rituals go back to where they belong: in the church. And this does two things in my eyes: One it allows Gays to have the legal status so there aren't headaches down the line. Two it also helps protect those churches who do not want to condone homosexuality (right or wrong that is their right) and not hold services there won't be such a sticky legal issue there to avoid lawsuits.

 

[droski]

That said, you are absolutely, positively wrong. There is nothing inherently "hateful" about disagreeing with someone. I challenge you to find and document wholesale abuse of homosexuals at the hands of conservative Christians.

There is nothing any more evil about opposing a belief/behavior and discouraging its acceptance if you believe that it does terrible harm to people than if you were discouraging someone from playing chicken with city buses. Sometimes the most loving thing you can possibly do is disagree with someone and oppose them. Making someone angry is not the measure of whether you are acting lovingly toward them or not.

You can believe what you like but it is alien to the actual facts to believe that homosexuality is a harmless behavior. The medical evidence is absolutely overwhelming.

ah yes the old "i just want you to know you are going to hell, but hey i love ya" argument.

and are you refering to aids in your last statement?

 

[tigervol9802]

I'm just bullying the bully. Frankly, it's not okay to call someone else's sexual orientation "sinful." It's deeply troubling to hear arguments centered upon respecting the beliefs of the poor homophobe business owner. As if we should be watching out for his bigotry lest it get infringed upon. I would speak up just as forcefully if someone wanted to discriminate against Christians. Discrimination and the infringement of one group's rights by another's beliefs can't be allowed to go unopposed.

If you believe the Bible is an old, outdated fairy tale book, then what does it matter if I call something sinful or not?

It's troubling that you don't respect the beliefs of the busness owner.

I so love that you have made the comments you have about Christians in this thread and follow up with the standard "I'd defend Christians too if they were being discriminated against". Classic.

 

[utvolpj]

ah yes the old "i just want you to know you are going to hell, but hey i love ya" argument.

the being gay = playing chicken with a bus is a new twist though.

 

[utvolpj]

I so love that you have made the comments you have about Christians in this thread and follow up with the standard "I'd defend Christians too if they were being discriminated against". Classic.

I don't see anything wrong with what he said about that. Disagreeing is fine but discrimination is not. Seems it is a good lesson