Why Private Health Care doesn't work

#53
#53
Lexvol said:
What cultures? This is silly and false. Greed has always fueled the "corridors of power".
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It is silly to deny this "ethic of selfishness" as being something completely new cultural history. Hell, most of the world still works on the "gift economy!" in the 21st century!

It's not just Ayn Rand nor Friedman acolytes either. Greed is the "new good." For the first time in human civilization it has been elevated to a VIRTUE and discussed as a VIRTUE openly.

It is no surprise then we have a false economy, poor health care, and are undergoing the Sixth Great Extinction.

This is the Faustian Bargain. What we have lost though is we are only truly human when we recognize our limitations. Otherwise, we pretend to be gods. How did that play out for Faust?
 
#54
#54
kptvol said:
Not familiar with the use of the question mark, I see.
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Not very good with reading and nuance, I see. But I knew that.

Deliberate use of question mark to offset the former poster's misuse of naive.

GSM.
 
#55
#55
utgibbs said:
Both statements are true.

Makes you look very uninformed?
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Rome was not motivated by greed? There are other easily identifiable examples but I'll stop there as it is all that is needed to discount your earlier statement.
 
#56
#56
utgibbs said:
Not very good with reading and nuance, I see. But I knew that.

Deliberate use of question mark to offset the former poster's misuse of naive.

GSM.
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Right. You meant to make it look questionable that he's uninformed. I've noticed you save "GSM" for the points that are the most stupid.
 
#57
#57
utgibbs said:
It is silly to deny this "ethic of selfishness" as being something completely new cultural history. Hell, most of the world still works on the "gift economy!" in the 21st century!

It's not just Ayn Rand nor Friedman acolytes either. Greed is the "new good." For the first time in human civilization it has been elevated to a VIRTUE and discussed as a VIRTUE openly.

It is no surprise then we have a false economy, poor health care, and are undergoing the Sixth Great Extinction.

This is the Faustian Bargain. What we have lost though is we are only truly human when we recognize our limitations. Otherwise, we pretend to be gods. How did that play out for Faust?
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Emperors and Kings didn't pretend to be gods? That is fresh. The difference is that more people actually have access to wealth and freedom to acquire it individually. Nothing has changed. Greed creates wealth and wealth creates power and a feeling of omnipotence. This is not a new sociological model.
 
#58
#58
Lexvol said:
Emperors and Kings didn't pretend to be gods? That is fresh. The difference is that more people actually have access to wealth and freedom to acquire it individually. Nothing has changed. Greed creates wealth and wealth creates power and a feeling of omnipotence. This is not a new sociological model.
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Yes it is. This problem only arose during the Bush years. :p
 
#59
#59
Lexvol said:
Is it not really the greed for political power that drives social programs? Government greed is much more detrimental to the collective than individual greed. Individual greed buys freedom/personal choice. Government greed takes it away.
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Hold up, wait a minuet, that can't be right.

Are you claiming that the government can be greedy itself?

Im not sure I buy that, we all well know that the government has always looked out for everyones best interest including those that are successful in business.
 
#60
#60
utgibbs said:
Yes, it is no surprise that we, living for the first time in human history where greed is regarded as a virtue, we have nearly destroyed the planet.
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Being a virtue or not is irrelevant. Greed will exist without it. And it doesn't skip over the government.
 
#61
#61
kptvol said:
Right. You meant to make it look questionable that he's uninformed. I've noticed you save "GSM" for the points that are the most stupid.
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No, I generally save GSM for you and the GoF. However, out of the Gang of Five, you do seem to get taken to the woodshed the most.

I'm sure it's only because you are the most prolific, and the others have geared back under the constant woodshed onslaught.
 
#62
#62
KB5252 said:
Rome was not motivated by greed? There are other easily identifiable examples but I'll stop there as it is all that is needed to discount your earlier statement.
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No, it wasn't. Although I would say Rome was a culture of the mine (much as ours). They didn't elevate greed to a virtue simply because even Augustus was fully aware from whence his bounty came.

However, if we want to take your point and run with it - what happened to Rome????

Not the same thing that happened to the Chinese culture, for instance.
 
#63
#63
utgibbs said:
No, I generally save GSM for you and the GoF. However, out of the Gang of Five, you do seem to get taken to the woodshed the most.

I'm sure it's only because you are the most prolific, and the others have geared back under the constant woodshed onslaught.
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I'm still reeling from the "UK will crush us if we don't run our offense through Poole" thing. And the argument that we we had a bad offensive gameplan for Ole Miss was another rough one.
 
#64
#64
utgibbs said:
No, I generally save GSM for you and the GoF. However, out of the Gang of Five, you do seem to get taken to the woodshed the most.

I'm sure it's only because you are the most prolific, and the others have geared back under the constant woodshed onslaught.
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Ever wondered why all the woodsheds you've seen have been inverted?

This whole thread is should be such an embarrassment to you that you hide in one of said upside down woodsheds.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#65
#65
BigPapaVol said:
Ever wondered why all the woodsheds you've seen have been inverted?

This whole thread is should be such an embarrassment to you that you hide in one of said upside down woodsheds.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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You know it's bad when even Vegas Vol refuses to acknowledge your support.
 
#66
#66
I'd rather people worship money than the govt. Any day, anytime anywhere.
 
#67
#67
Lexvol said:
I'd rather people worship money than the govt. Any day, anytime anywhere.
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Yes, at least then the whiny and their enablers have someone's "plight" to whine about. The greedy only get there at someone else's expense, right?
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#68
#68
utgibbs said:
No, it wasn't. Although I would say Rome was a culture of the mine (much as ours). They didn't elevate greed to a virtue simply because even Augustus was fully aware from whence his bounty came.

However, if we want to take your point and run with it - what happened to Rome????

Not the same thing that happened to the Chinese culture, for instance.
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We aren't debating the consequences of greed (both good and bad). We are debating the novelty of greed. Nothing has changed about greed. Nothing. It is the same yesterday, today, and will be the same tomorrow.
 
#69
#69
BigPapaVol said:
Yes, at least then the whiny and their enablers have someone's "plight" to whine about. The greedy only get there at someone else's expense, right?
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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If we are talking mythological left concepts...which we seem to be doing in this thread...that is a resounding yes!
 
#70
#70
Lexvol said:
We aren't debating the consequences of greed (both good and bad). We are debating the novelty of greed. Nothing has changed about greed. Nothing. It is the same yesterday, today, and will be the same tomorrow.
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Exactly. Greed is what it is, and will do what it always does.

I would like to see where the separation lies though. How can an individual be greedy, but government officials not be?
 
#71
#71
BeecherVol said:
Exactly. Greed is what it is, and will do what it always does.

I would like to see where the separation lies though. How can an individual be greedy, but government officials not be?
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The "party before constituents" model tells you everything you need to know. Hopefully this last election will turn the tide a bit, but I'm not holding my breath.
 
#72
#72
utgibbs said:
It's classic:

No incentive.

There is no incentive in a private system to keep people from getting sick nor to make them better.
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This is actually true of our quasi-private system but being a Progressive you have conveniently ignored the REASONS it is true.

First, Big Labor and Big Business have contrived to promote laws that favor dependence on them. They prevent people from gathering in voluntary co-ops based on their church, community organization, extended family, etc to purchase insurance.

Second, this gov't promoted, employer based system insulates the consumer from his choices. Few make the association between their behavior and cost increases.

Third and possibly the worst, the left and gov't has done everything in their power to PREVENT individuals from bearing the consequences of their own choices. Take for instance the "pre-existing conditions" thing. A guy could smoke for years under one plan, develop health issues, then take another job and burden that company with the costs of HIS PERSONAL CHOICES. Regulations prevent companies from charging high risk people more... even if the risks are because of choices.

Last, it is YOU GUYS who force doctors to charge private carriers more to make up for price controls mandated by gov't providers. The hidden costs of gov't health care today would probably equal the official budget numbers.

Your side has done everything in your power to prevent the free market from working as it should in health care and then stand around complaining about the problems. You are PRECISELY like the employee that runs to the emergency room for Tylenol 5 times per year or refuses to use a plan doctor and then complains because the premiums go up the next year.

Meanwhile, a single-payer public system focuses on efficiency, prevention, and well-being. It urges individual responsibility and patient education.
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This is perhaps the most idiotic thing I have seen in a long while. The type of single-payer system advocated by the left would ENCOURAGE irresponsible use unless some form of rather arbitrary rationing were set up. In fact, that and price limits are the ONLY ways that socialized systems survive. Because of these "efficiencies", systems of any size and complexity have waiting lines, rationing, poor quality, and little innovation.

There IS a single payer system that would work but you guys would NEVER agree to giving people this type of freedom- vouchers.

the data is comprehensive and unambiguous. Public systems pay less for better care.
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Only if you spin it beyond recognition. Public systems do such a poor job that people are afraid to get sick. The public systems in western Europe were established when they could depend on us to provide most of their national defense AND because our gov't has allowed them to shift costs to use for the better part of 30 years. We pay a disproportionate portion of R&D expenses for instance.
 
#73
#73
utgibbs said:
No, it wasn't. Although I would say Rome was a culture of the mine (much as ours). They didn't elevate greed to a virtue simply because even Augustus was fully aware from whence his bounty came.

However, if we want to take your point and run with it - what happened to Rome????

Not the same thing that happened to the Chinese culture, for instance.
Click to expand...

Greed and excess were just as much a driver for their culture as it is for ours now. The rich in Rome were legendary for their excesses. Greed was the driver for Rome's expansion then just as it is for America today. Nothing has really changed.

As for the decline and fall of Rome you have a very good point. Rome's fall was due to a combination of many issues and there is certainly much we need to be wary of in this respect.
 
#74
#74
Lexvol said:
Is it not really the greed for political power that drives social programs? Government greed is much more detrimental to the collective than individual greed. Individual greed buys freedom/personal choice. Government greed takes it away.
Click to expand...
:good!:

the notion that government is by nature virtuous is absurd
 
#75
#75
Rome fell primarily because of moral/values decay and the eventual collapse of the basic building block of society- the family.
 
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