Will this finally settle the Manning - Brady debate?

[Bigorangefaninga]

SO....I guess we just refuse to acknowledge that Manning's 2nd SB WIN was more about Denver's D than Manning's QB play???

And you guys seem to forget about the Colts' Defensive play thru the playoffs for Manning's first SB win against da Bears....as well as Manning's choke against the Ravens in the 2012 playoffs at home--which took 2 special teams TDs just to keep Denver in that game....not to mention his INTs against the Saints in his 2nd SB.....

Manning was a GREAT QB....NO way anyone can doubt that fact. But his playoff performances were certainly not great over the whole of his career.

Or maybe we should start with Brady has to have so many comeback drives because he sucked up until the point they play for the last 2 minutes. I mean he was not very good last night and that same defense gave up how many to the Chiefs and Saints? He came back against Atlanta because Atlanta's coach took his foot off the gas and gave the Pats a chance to actually come back, quit blitzing and their offense went vanilla, made me think El Bandito Chavis was coaching the Falcons! Again the best team i think he ever had they got beat by Peyton's brother who has 2 rings, so if we are talking great quarterbacks have a bunch of rings are we going to say Eli is better compared to Peyton or heck even Dan M. Is Brady great? Yes, yes he is, but his teams have been great and I am sorry but you cannot ever tell me its not the franchise that is great when Matt Cassel went the same W-L record during the season as Brady did, yet didnt make the playoffs and he has a huge losing % as a starting QB everywhere else!

 

[volfannbama]

Fyp

Link?

 

[volfannbama]

I don't give a rat's rear about pro football but find it really funny people splitting hairs saying Brady is no good and isn't GOAT. The leader of a team with 6 championship rings isn't GOAT? So it's really not about championships? Ok... Even Drudge had a headline about GOAT. I think most rational people would agree with that.

Its all about whatever people need it to be to advance their pov. For instance, you may here that it's because of Coach Belichick, but come college season its all players and nothing to do with the coach.

 

[Sin City Vol]

You mean Brady? As good as Peyton was, his teams were 12-13 in the playoffs, including 9 one-and-dones. A couple of those one-and-dones came after a 13 or 14-win regular season and were shocking, almost inexplicable losses. To be fair, that has also happened a couple times to Brady (2009 and 2010), but Brady also has 6 total SBs to make up for it.

Peyton never had the head coaching and defense Brady has, but Peyton had far more weapons on offense to play with than Brady has. Belichick, with a couple of exceptions, has had all this success with a rotating cast of solid but not great players around Brady, who at the start of his career was just "a guy" himself.

I think @MWAVolfan makes a great point that when you get down to it, Peyton is known more for the counting stats (yards, TDs, etc.) and over time those records get broken or look less impressive, especially as the game continues to be so offense and QB-oriented. Peyton is a couple of playoff runs away from being thought of like Dan Marino.

Peyton has more comeback wins than any QB in history

 

[MikeVol44]

Who's this "you guys" - I'm agreeing with you. You can very easily argue that the Broncos won the SB that year in spite of Peyton. He was an absolute turnover machine that year. And the Colts defense in 2006 was by far the best defense Peyton had while in Indy.

My point was that Brady has had a definite advantage over Peyton on the defensive side of the ball. Brady routinely has a very good, sometimes great, defense. While in Indy, Peyton routinely had mediocre defenses. I think Peyton had an advantage over Brady on the offensive side of the ball. Peyton had a HOF receiver to throw the ball to for his entire Colts career and a 6x Pro Bowler in Reggie Wayne. Brady had Moss for 3+ years and an oft-injured Gronk; other than that, he's had to rely on guys like Troy Brown, Deion Branch, David Givens, Wes Welker, Julian Edelman, etc.

"you guys" is a general reference to ALL posters in the thread.....

***. all rankings according to pro-football-reference.com

2002. Colts had #7 Defense in NFL....LOST to JETS...JETS had #14 defense in league. WILD CARD
2003. Colts had #20 Defense in NFL....LOST to PATS...PATS had #1 defense in league
2004. Colts had #19 Defense in NFL...LOST to PATS...PATS had #2 defense in league
2005 Colts had #2 Defense in NFL....LOST to Steelers....Steelers had #4 defense in league
2006 Colts had #23 Defense in NFL.....WON SB against Bears....Bears had #3 defense in league
2007. Colts had #1 Defense in NFL......LOST to Chargers at DOME....Chargers had #5 defense
2008. Colts had #7 Defense in NFL.....LOST to Chargers on road.....Chargers had #15 defense
2009. Colts had #8 Defense in NFL....LOST SB to Saints...Saints had #20 ranked defense
2010. Colts had #23 Defense in NFL....LOST Wild Card to NY Jets at DOME.....Jets had #6 ranked Defense....
2012. Broncos had #4 Defense in NFL....LOST to RAVENS in Denver....Ravens had #12 ranked Defense
2013. Broncos had #22 defense in NFL....LOST SB to Seahawks....Seahawks had #1 defense
2014. Broncos had #17 defense in NFL....LOST to COLTS in Denver....Colts had #19 defense
2015. Broncos had #4 defense in NFL....WON SB against Panthers....Panthers had #6 defense

MANNING has 7 PLAYOFF LOSSES in 13 POST-SEASON GAMES when when HIS TEAM had the BETTER DEFENSE!!!!

1 to the JETS...1 to the STEELERS....2 to the Chargers....1 to the Saints...1 to the Ravens...1 to the COLTS

He LOST one SB when he had the BETTER DEFENSE....to the SAINTS...

So much for all of you guys claiming that Belichik's superior DEFENSIVE skills have given BRADY an advantage.

Manning couldn't get it done when he had the BETTER DEFENSE, either.

 

[tennbjj]

"you guys" is a general reference to ALL posters in the thread.....

***. all rankings according to pro-football-reference.com

2002. Colts had #7 Defense in NFL....LOST to JETS...JETS had #14 defense in league. WILD CARD
2003. Colts had #20 Defense in NFL....LOST to PATS...PATS had #1 defense in league
2004. Colts had #19 Defense in NFL...LOST to PATS...PATS had #2 defense in league
2005 Colts had #2 Defense in NFL....LOST to Steelers....Steelers had #4 defense in league
2006 Colts had #23 Defense in NFL.....WON SB against Bears....Bears had #3 defense in league
2007. Colts had #1 Defense in NFL......LOST to Chargers at DOME....Chargers had #5 defense
2008. Colts had #7 Defense in NFL.....LOST to Chargers on road.....Chargers had #15 defense
2009. Colts had #8 Defense in NFL....LOST SB to Saints...Saints had #20 ranked defense
2010. Colts had #23 Defense in NFL....LOST Wild Card to NY Jets at DOME.....Jets had #6 ranked Defense....
2012. Broncos had #4 Defense in NFL....LOST to RAVENS in Denver....Ravens had #12 ranked Defense
2013. Broncos had #22 defense in NFL....LOST SB to Seahawks....Seahawks had #1 defense
2014. Broncos had #17 defense in NFL....LOST to COLTS in Denver....Colts had #19 defense
2015. Broncos had #4 defense in NFL....WON SB against Panthers....Panthers had #6 defense

MANNING has 7 PLAYOFF LOSSES in 13 POST-SEASON GAMES when when HIS TEAM had the BETTER DEFENSE!!!!

1 to the JETS...1 to the STEELERS....2 to the Chargers....1 to the Saints...1 to the Ravens...1 to the COLTS

He LOST one SB when he had the BETTER DEFENSE....to the SAINTS...

So much for all of you guys claiming that Belichik's superior DEFENSIVE skills have given BRADY an advantage.

Don't even try. Posted these numbers twice in this thread to refute the whole "Manning only ever had 2 decent defenses, and he won Superbowls then" argument. Facts aren't penetrating the brick wall of thinking.

 

[05_never_again]

"you guys" is a general reference to ALL posters in the thread.....

***. all rankings according to pro-football-reference.com

2002. Colts had #7 Defense in NFL....LOST to JETS...JETS had #14 defense in league. WILD CARD
2003. Colts had #20 Defense in NFL....LOST to PATS...PATS had #1 defense in league
2004. Colts had #19 Defense in NFL...LOST to PATS...PATS had #2 defense in league
2005 Colts had #2 Defense in NFL....LOST to Steelers....Steelers had #4 defense in league
2006 Colts had #23 Defense in NFL.....WON SB against Bears....Bears had #3 defense in league
2007. Colts had #1 Defense in NFL......LOST to Chargers at DOME....Chargers had #5 defense
2008. Colts had #7 Defense in NFL.....LOST to Chargers on road.....Chargers had #15 defense
2009. Colts had #8 Defense in NFL....LOST SB to Saints...Saints had #20 ranked defense
2010. Colts had #23 Defense in NFL....LOST Wild Card to NY Jets at DOME.....Jets had #6 ranked Defense....
2012. Broncos had #4 Defense in NFL....LOST to RAVENS in Denver....Ravens had #12 ranked Defense
2013. Broncos had #22 defense in NFL....LOST SB to Seahawks....Seahawks had #1 defense
2014. Broncos had #17 defense in NFL....LOST to COLTS in Denver....Colts had #19 defense
2015. Broncos had #4 defense in NFL....WON SB against Panthers....Panthers had #6 defense

MANNING has 7 PLAYOFF LOSSES in 13 POST-SEASON GAMES when when HIS TEAM had the BETTER DEFENSE!!!!

1 to the JETS...1 to the STEELERS....2 to the Chargers....1 to the Saints...1 to the Ravens...1 to the COLTS

He LOST one SB when he had the BETTER DEFENSE....to the SAINTS...

So much for all of you guys claiming that Belichik's superior DEFENSIVE skills have given BRADY an advantage.

Are those defensive rankings total defense? Scoring defense?

 

[MikeVol44]

Peyton has more comeback wins than any QB in history

NOT when it counts most--IN THE PLAYOFFS....he only has TWO 4th QTR game-winning drives.....

 

[WiseOlVol]

Sorry...MVP Awards say you’re wrong. Also says Manning was only AS good as Steve McNair in a season where he had better stats and swept wins in the same division. Mosley was a kicker. But MVP science is science.

McNair won One.
Manning won FIVE.
Nobody else has won more than 3.
Brady had 2 when Manning retired, now only 3, and done.
Tack on 7-Times All Pro and Manning is the Most Valuable and most Highly Decorated QB in NFL history.
His case for GOAT is superior to anyone's.

 

[WiseOlVol]

NOT when it counts most--IN THE PLAYOFFS....he only has TWO 4th QTR game-winning drives.....

Which games don't count?

 

[MikeVol44]

Are those defensive rankings total defense? Scoring defense?

I gave you the reference in the post before listing the rankings.
They are TEAM DEFENSE RANKINGS...

I'm sure that all of you VOL and MANNING homers will find some nuance to claim those numbers are not valid.....

But I gave you the source for yourself to check out.

The TRUTH is that BRADY GETS it done and WINS the big games... He's won the SB when he's had a defense ranked #1 and all the way down to #8.
BRADY was GOTTEN HIS TEAM to the SB when his teams have been ranked 4, 5, and 15th. He lost those SBs...but he got his team INTO the SB.

MANNING can't say the same things....Yes, he did get his teams (Defense ranked #23, and #22) to the SBs twice....beat the Bears #3 defense ranking and lost to the SEAHAWKS #1 defense....

But HE has had MANY opportunities to get his team into the SB with VERY GOOD DEFENSES and didn't get it done in the MAJORITY of those games.

BRADY does-----GOAT!

 

[VOL_Lyfe]

Peyton has more comeback wins than any QB in history

Because Peyton let his team fall behind early more than any QB in history.

 

[05_never_again]

I gave you the reference in the post before listing the rankings.
They are TEAM DEFENSE RANKINGS...

I'm sure that all of you VOL and MANNING homers will find some nuance to claim those numbers are not valid.....

But I gave you the source for yourself to check out.

The TRUTH is that BRADY GETS it done and WINS the big games... He's won the SB when he's had a defense ranked #1 and all the way down to #8.
BRADY was GOTTEN HIS TEAM to the SB when his teams have been ranked 4, 5, and 15th. He lost those SBs...but he got his team INTO the SB.

MANNING can't say the same things....Yes, he did get his teams (Defense ranked #23, and #22) to the SBs twice....beat the Bears #3 defense ranking and lost to the SEAHAWKS #1 defense....

But HE has had MANY opportunities to get his team into the SB with VERY GOOD DEFENSES and didn't get it done in the MAJORITY of those games.

BRADY does-----GOAT!

No, I want to SEE the RANKINGS instead of YOU citing them from SOMEWHERE ELSE. WHICH ones did YOU USE? LINK?

I don't even disagree with you, which is why this is so funny. The point I'm making is that Brady, over the balance of his career, has had a good defense more consistently than Peyton did.

 

[jps2194]

They are both excellent quarterbacks and I don't get why every one has to say one is better than the other. They each have strengths and weaknesses and hard to compare since they played for different teams and different coaches.

The best intangible Brady has going for him is Belichick. He is an absolute genius and nobody seems to be mentioning that. Yes Brady has a lot to do with their success, but if Belichick wasn't their coach there is no way he has 6 rings. He absolutely figures out a way to expose his opponent and is the best game planner and in game coach I've ever seen. You could put any competent QB on their team and they would still make the playoffs or have an excellent record (e.g., 2008 11-5 record without Brady).

But hey, the Patriots won 6 SB's only because of Brady - yeah right. And they have no talent on their team other than Brady - yeah right. You are delusional if that is your argument.

 

[CR-vol]

Its all about whatever people need it to be to advance their pov. For instance, you may here that it's because of Coach Belichick, but come college season its all players and nothing to do with the coach.

The way I see it a championship is the ultimate of any sport. That's what everyone strives for. Individual achievements are nice but the greatest people and teams win championships. There is no way to argue otherwise. Peyton Manning has a history of choking when everything is on the line.

 

[tennbjj]

The point I'm making is that Brady, over the balance of his career, has had a good defense more consistently than Peyton did.

That is generally true, yes but Peyton has some really good ones as well. Numbers below are team defense:

Brady: Worst defenses for Brady in 2002, 2005 they were #17. Mostly in top 10 or even top 5 all other seasons.

Manning's top defenses: 2012 Denver Broncos #4 Defense, 2009 Colts #8, 2008 Def #7, 2007 Def #1, 2005 Colts #2 Def, 2002 Colts #7. Also in 2006 when Peyton won his first Super Bowl, Colts were ranked # 23 Def

*HERE IS MY LINK SO YOU CAN CLICK AND READ NOT PULLING NUMBERS FROM MY A$$ PLEASE CLICK HERE*------------------->>> Stats from: 2018 NFL Opposition & Defensive Statistics | Pro-Football-Reference.com

 

[615vols]

NOT when it counts most--IN THE PLAYOFFS....he only has TWO 4th QTR game-winning drives.....

What is peytons record vs brady "when it counts most", the afc championship game?

 

[KBVol]

Put Dan Marino on the field in a DOME for the COLTS during Manning's greatest years and he wins DOUBLE the playoff games and SBs as Manning.

Lol. Manning went to 4 Super Bowls, Marino went to one. Manning is the only qb in nfl history to QB two different teams to SB victories. Marino was the best pure passer I’ve ever seen, but nothing supports the idea that he was a better QB than Peyton or that he’d have won even a single game more than Manning had he been given the same exact set of circumstances. Not sure what your beef is with Peyton, but everybody’s entitled to their own opinion, even if it’s purely subjective and void of facts, so have at it.

 

[tennbjj]

They are both excellent quarterbacks and I don't get why every one has to say one is better than the other. They each have strengths and weaknesses and hard to compare since they played for different teams and different coaches.

The best intangible Brady has going for him is Belichick. He is an absolute genius and nobody seems to be mentioning that. Yes Brady has a lot to do with their success, but if Belichick wasn't their coach there is no way he has 6 rings. He absolutely figures out a way to expose his opponent and is the best game planner and in game coach I've ever seen. You could put any competent QB on their team and they would still make the playoffs or have an excellent record (e.g., 2008 11-5 record without Brady).

But hey, the Patriots won 6 SB's only because of Brady - yeah right. And they have no talent on their team other than Brady - yeah right. You are delusional if that is your argument.

Well stated and reasonable post. Please leave the thread

Belichick is indeed a huge intangible. I really think Brady's draft position is as well. He seems the kind of guy who gets himself worked into a fervor before every game to try and beat the team that didn't draft him. Take that away from him, and maybe his killer instinct isn't quite as sharp. Who knows?

If I'm an NFL owner, I'd be ecstatic to have either of them and their accomplishments on our resume. I'm still a Joe Montana guy, mostly due to the offensive rule changes that would have benefited him immensely that came after his time.

 

[volfannbama]

The way I see it a championship is the ultimate of any sport. That's what everyone strives for. Individual achievements are nice but the greatest people and teams win championships. There is no way to argue otherwise. Peyton Manning has a history of choking when everything is on the line.

Yeah, its like someone said earlier, if Brady had played for Tennessee and Manning / Michigan it wouldnt be a debate...

But it would be a much easier point to prove that way.

 

[volfannbama]

Lol. Manning went to 4 Super Bowls, Marino went to one. Manning is the only qb in nfl history to QB two different teams to SB victories. Marino was the best pure passer I’ve ever seen, but nothing supports the idea that he was a better QB than Peyton or that he’d have won even a single game more than Manning had he been given the same exact set of circumstances. Not sure what your beef is with Peyton, but everybody’s entitled to their own opinion, even if it’s purely subjective and void of facts, so have at it.

So the amount of super bowls one makes it to is a guage now? Well then.....

 

[Jaws]

You Brady-deniers need to stop it.

Tell your kids and grandkids what an amazing time it is to be alive watching this.

You can do that while also accepting Peyton Manning was one helluva great QB too.

 

[Behr]

You Brady-deniers need to stop it.

Tell your kids and grandkids what an amazing time it is to be alive watching this.

You can do that while also accepting Peyton Manning was one helluva great QB too.

You need to stfu.

 

[PhoenixAZVol]

You Brady-deniers need to stop it.

Tell your kids and grandkids what an amazing time it is to be alive watching this.

You can do that while also accepting Peyton Manning was one helluva great QB too.

I don’t allow my kids to watch any Brady games at my home. Any time the patriots are on we turn the tv off. I don’t want to expose them to liars and cheaters.

 

[PhoenixAZVol]

You Brady-deniers need to stop it.

Tell your kids and grandkids what an amazing time it is to be alive watching this.

You can do that while also accepting Peyton Manning was one helluva great QB too.

Amazing time to be watching what? A guy putting up 13 points in the lowest scoring Sb ever?