Zimmerman charged with 2nd degree murder

#26
#26
the whole thing is lose/lose. I don't have any particular sympathy for Zimmerman - he did kill someone. He got railroaded by some in the press and some others to be sure but in the end he did shoot someone that he had no business following around.
 
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#27
#27
MystifyingVol said:
Shouldn't the prosecution have to prove it wasn't?
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I'm pretty sure you have to prove you were defending yourself if it is a documented fact that you have killed someone, especially if they are unarmed.

However, Florida's state laws might be different. I thought I heard on the news that Zimmerman needs to prove it was self-defense though. (Save yourselves with the "liberal media lying while attacking Zimmerman" BS. If you have solid proof that is incorrect, I would like to see it though).

If it's the prosecution's burden to prove it was not self-defense, that is treading in dangerous water if you ask me. Someone could make an argument, "I was kidnapped by aliens and forced to murder him. I didn't know what I was doing. Prove that's not true." That is an extreme example, but hey, we have plenty of extreme people in this world who would test that type of law, I'm sure.

Overall, I think the right decision was made. Whenever a man kills an unarmed minor, he should be arrested and have a trial. He can use the "self-defense" defense during the trial. The mistake was not arresting him to begin with, which helped create a huge media circus, thus decreasing his chances for a fair trial. If he was just arrested to begin with, it wouldn't nearly have been as huge of a story. FLA police screwed up big time here, IMO.
 
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#28
#28
volinbham said:
the whole thing is lose/lose. I don't have any particular sympathy for Zimmerman - he did kill someone. He got railroaded by some in the press and some others to be sure but in the end he did shoot someone that he had no business following around.
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It's a public sidewalk. Zimmerman has the right to walk down it as anyone else in the complex. Everyone has followed someone else around for a couple hundred feet before. Someone walks behind me on the way to lunch every day. And anyone can ask you a question in public..like what are you doing here? Homeless folks ask me stupid crap everyday.
 
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#29
#29
vols-1 said:
It's a public sidewalk. Zimmerman has the right to walk down it as anyone else in the complex. Everyone has followed some else around for a couple hundred feet before. Someone walks behind me on the way to lunch every day.
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Yeah but that's not what happened. 911 established that they indicated he should not pursue, get involved. It wasn't a busy sidewalk.

I don't know the full story but it's pretty clear Zimmerman thought the guy was suspicious and got involved. As a result, one guy is dead and the other might be going to prison.
 
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#30
#30
KoachKrab127 said:
I'm pretty sure you have to prove you were defending yourself if it is a documented fact that you have killed someone, especially if they are unarmed.

However, Florida's state laws might be different. I thought I heard on the news that Zimmerman needs to prove it was self-defense though. (Save yourselves with the "liberal media lying while attacking Zimmerman" BS. If you have solid proof that is incorrect, I would like to see it though).

If it's the prosecution's burden to prove it was not self-defense, that is treading in dangerous water if you ask me. Someone could make an argument, "I was kidnapped by aliens and forced to murder him. I didn't know what I was doing. Prove that's not true." That is an extreme example, but hey, we have plenty of extreme people in this world who would test that type of law, I'm sure.

Overall, I think the right decision was made. Whenever a man kills an unarmed minor, he should be arrested and have a trial. He can use the "self-defense" defense during the trial. The mistake was not arresting him to begin with, which helped create a huge media circus, thus decreasing his chances for a fair trial. If he was just arrested to begin with, it wouldn't nearly have been as huge of a story. FLA police screwed up big time here, IMO.
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the prosecution has to prove Zimmerman's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

If a, or the, theory of Zimmerman's defense is self-defense, then he carries the burden of proving self defense only.

Zimmerman does not have to prove his non-guilt - he doesnt have to put on proof at all. The burden of proof rests with the prosecution.
 
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#31
#31
volinbham said:
Yeah but that's not what happened. 911 established that they indicated he should not pursue, get involved. It wasn't a busy sidewalk.

I don't know the full story but it's pretty clear Zimmerman thought the guy was suspicious and got involved. As a result, one guy is dead and the other might be going to prison.
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But how do you know? It does not matter if the sidewalk is busy or not. The teen ran off while Zimmerman was on the phone.
 
#32
#32
dreVol said:
the prosecution has to prove Zimmerman's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

I think that Zimmerman has admitted, beyond a reasonable doubt that he killed the kid. So that's a moot point, yes?

If a, or the, theory of Zimmerman's defense is self-defense, then he carries the burden of proving self defense only.

Yes

Zimmerman does not have to prove his non-guilt - he doesnt have to put on proof at all. The burden of proof rests with the prosecution.
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The proof of what? That he killed the kid? That is not in dispute.

What the prosecution needs to prove is that it was murder vs manslaughter or some other charge.
 
#33
#33
vols-1 said:
But how do you know? It does not matter if the sidewalk is busy or not. The teen ran off while Zimmerman was on the phone.
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What I know is that Zimmerman saw someone he thought was suspicious in his neighborhood (911 call), the 911 operator said he didn't need to follow him (911 call), Zimmerman did not heed the advice and had some interaction with Martin in the area (911 call/facts reported). It wasn't a case of Zimmerman walking down a busy street and randomly running into Martin.

Is he guilty of 2nd degree murder? No idea. I do know though that he inserted himself into a situation where he was advised not to and he shot someone. I can see how that results in charges and had he not inserted himself he wouldn't be facing those charges.
 
#34
#34
volinbham said:
What I know is that Zimmerman saw someone he thought was suspicious in his neighborhood (911 call), the 911 operator said he didn't need to follow him (911 call), Zimmerman did not heed the advice and had some interaction with Martin in the area (911 call/facts reported). It wasn't a case of Zimmerman walking down a busy street and randomly running into Martin.

Is he guilty of 2nd degree murder? No idea. I do know though that he inserted himself into a situation where he was advised not to and he shot someone. I can see how that results in charges and had he not inserted himself he wouldn't be facing those charges.
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I would like to hit a lot homeless people follow me and ask me for money when I walk downtown(they insert themselves into my situation), but I cant touch them in public..thats the law. There is even a law thats says no panhandling. But for some reason I still can't beat the snot out of them? Go Figure!
 
#36
#36
Danl said:
The proof of what? That he killed the kid? That is not in dispute.

What the prosecution needs to prove is that it was murder vs manslaughter or some other charge.
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Second degree murder:

Murder with a Depraved Mind occurs when a person is (1) killed, (2) without any premeditated design, by (3) an act (3) imminently dangerous to another and (4) evincing a depraved mind showing no regard for human life.
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Manslaughter:

Committing (1) an act that was (2) neither excusable, (3) nor justified that (4) resulted in the death of another (5) person. . . .

Manslaughter by Culpable Negligence: Engaging in (1) "Culpably Negligent” conduct that (2) resulted in the death of another (3) person.
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all we know is that Zimmerman shot Trayvon. the prosecution has to prove the elements above beyond a reasonable doubt. we don't live in a world where (1) person a shoots person b; (2) ergo, person a is guilty of murder. facts, evidence, and proof will be kind of important in the coming months.
 
#39
#39
dreVol said:
Second degree murder:



Manslaughter:



all we know is that Zimmerman shot Trayvon. the prosecution has to prove the elements above beyond a reasonable doubt. we don't live in a world where (1) person a shoots person b; (2) ergo, person a is guilty of murder. facts, evidence, and proof will be kind of important in the coming months.
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I know that you read the last line of my post because you quoted it. Right?

We do live in a world where (1) person A, who has been told by authorities on a 911 call to (2) not to engage with person B, (3) does so and in doing so (4) shoots and kills person B , ergo (5) person A is going to be charged with the killing of person B.

What the charges are and what the charges will be for killing (not just shooting) person B are up to the parties involved.
 
#40
#40
his father is a retired former florida surpreme court justice, he will have the best lawyers possible and get off.
 
#41
#41
The Associated Press

SANFORD, Fla. — After an extraordinary public campaign to make an arrest in the shooting of an unarmed black teen, a Florida prosecutor came back with a murder charge in the case that has galvanized the nation for weeks.
But prosecutors face steep hurdles to win a second-degree murder conviction against neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in the killing of Trayvon Martin, experts say. They will have to prove Zimmerman intentionally went after Martin instead of shooting him in self-defense, refute arguments that a Florida law empowered him to use deadly force and get past a judge's ruling at a pretrial hearing.

Zimmerman, 28, who turned himself in at a county jail Wednesday after prosecutor Angela Corey announced the charge, was to appear before a magistrate Thursday and plead not guilty in the Feb. 26 shooting of the 17-year-old that set off a nationwide debate about racial profiling and the rights to self-defense.

"He is concerned about getting a fair trial and a fair presentation," his attorney, Mark O'Mara said. "He is a client who has a lot of hatred focused on him. I'm hoping the hatred settles down ... he has the right to his own safety and the case being tried before a judge and jury."

Legal experts said Corey chose a tough route with the murder charge, which could send Zimmerman to prison for life if he's convicted, over manslaughter, which usually carries 15-year prison terms and covers reckless or negligent killings.

The prosecutors must prove Zimmerman's shooting of Martin was rooted in hatred or ill will and counter his claims that he shot Martin to protect himself while patrolling his gated community in the Orlando suburb of Sanford. Zimmerman's lawyers would only have to prove by a preponderance of evidence — a relatively low legal standard — that he acted in self-defense at a pretrial hearing to prevent the case from going to trial.

There's a "high likelihood it could be dismissed by the judge even before the jury gets to hear the case," Florida defense attorney Richard Hornsby said.

Corey announced the charges Wednesday after an extraordinary 45-day campaign for Zimmerman's arrest, led by Martin's parents and civil rights activists, including the Rev. Al Sharpton and the Rev. Jesse Jackson. Protesters wore hooded sweatshirts like the one Martin had on the night of the shooting. The debate reached all the way to the White House, where President Barack Obama observed last month: "If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon."

Corey would not discuss how she reconciled conflicting accounts of the shooting by Zimmerman, witnesses and phone recordings that indicated Martin thought Zimmerman was following him.

"We do not prosecute by public pressure or by petition. We prosecute based on the facts on any given case as well as the laws of the state of Florida," Corey said.

Martin's parents expressed relief over the decision to prosecute the person who shot their son.

"The question I would really like to ask him is, if he could look into Trayvon's eyes and see how innocent he was, would he have then pulled the trigger? Or would he have just let him go on home?" said his father, Tracy Martin.

Many attorneys said they had expected the prosecutor to opt for the lesser charge of manslaughter. The most severe homicide charge, first-degree murder, is subject to the death penalty in Florida and requires premeditation — something all sides agreed was not present in this case.

"I predicted manslaughter, so I'm a little surprised," said Michael Seigel, a former federal prosecutor who now teaches law at the University of Florida. "But she has more facts than I do."

O'Mara, Zimmerman's attorney, said his client would plead not guilty and invoke Florida's so-called "stand your ground" law, which gives people wide latitude to use deadly force rather than retreat during a fight.

The confrontation took place in a gated community where Martin was staying with his father and his father's fiancée. Martin was walking back in the rain from a convenience store when Zimmerman spotted him and called 911. He followed the teenager despite being told not to by a police dispatcher and the two got into a struggle.

Zimmerman told police Martin punched him in the nose, knocking him down, and then began banging the volunteer's head on the sidewalk. Zimmerman said he shot Martin in fear for his life. Sanford police took Zimmerman, whose father is white and whose mother is Hispanic, into custody the night of the shooting but released him without charging him.

A judge could dismiss the charge based on the "stand your ground" law, legal experts said. But some experts say the judge will also be under tremendous pressure to let the case go forward.

"Judges are not likely to take that out of the hands of the jury," said Florida defense attorney Randy Reep.

Other attorneys weren't surprised that Corey went for the maximum.

"Prosecutors look for leverage. They'll typically overcharge knowing that gives them wiggle room for plea discussions," said Derek Byrd, incoming president of the Florida Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. "She knows that she could offer him manslaughter at some point or get in front of a jury that could split the verdict and agree on a lesser offense."

Corey wouldn't discuss how she arrived at the charges or disclose other details of her investigation. The prosecutor in Jacksonville was appointed to handle the case by Republican Gov. Rick Scott after the local prosecutor disqualified himself.

The U.S. Justice Department's civil rights division is conducting its own civil rights investigation.

Tensions had risen in Sanford, a town of 50,000 outside Orlando. Someone shot up an unoccupied police car Tuesday outside the neighborhood where Martin was killed. Outside of Sanford City Hall on Wednesday, Stacy Davis, who is black, said the arrest "is not a black or white thing for me. It's a right or wrong thing."

In Washington, Martin's family pleaded for calm in response to the decision. But Martin's mother, Sybrina Fulton, clasped hands and smiled in relief when she heard Corey utter the words "second-degree murder" on television.

"We wanted an arrest and we got it," Fulton said later. "Thank you Lord, Thank you, Jesus."

___

Bluestein reported from Atlanta. Associated Press writers Suzanne Gamboa in Washington, Gary Fineout in Jacksonville, Fla.; Mike Schneider in Orlando, Fla.; Curt Anderson in Miami, Kyle Hightower in Sanford, Fla.; and Brendan Farrington in Tallahassee, Fla.; also contributed to this article.

___

.
 
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#42
#42
Zimmerman's lawyers would only have to prove by a preponderance of evidence — a relatively low legal standard — that he acted in self-defense at a pretrial hearing to prevent the case from going to trial.

There's a "high likelihood it could be dismissed by the judge even before the jury gets to hear the case," Florida defense attorney Richard Hornsby said.
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honestly it sounds like the best-case scenario for Zimmerman

"We do not prosecute by public pressure or by petition. We prosecute based on the facts on any given case as well as the laws of the state of Florida," Corey said.
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:lolabove:
 
#43
#43
Danl said:
I know that you read the last line of my post because you quoted it. Right?

We do live in a world where (1) person A, who has been told by authorities on a 911 call to (2) not to engage with person B, (3) does so and in doing so (4) shoots and kills person B , ergo (5) person A is going to be charged with the killing of person B.

What the charges are and what the charges will be for killing (not just shooting) person B are up to the parties involved.
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that's what is in dispute. from the information available, I'm not seeing how the prosecution can prove what happened beyond RD.

a witness saw TM on top of GZ. GZ was allegedly walking back to his car. GZ allegedly did not confront TM until he was blindsided.

we'll see what happens
 
#44
#44
vols-1 said:
It's a public sidewalk. Zimmerman has the right to walk down it as anyone else in the complex. Everyone has followed someone else around for a couple hundred feet before. Someone walks behind me on the way to lunch every day. And anyone can ask you a question in public..like what are you doing here? Homeless folks ask me stupid crap everyday.
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Thought I heard that it was a gated community and the teen was not staying at any home in that subdivision. Might be wrong though. Not making excuses but there are many facts the general public don't hear or choose to ignore.
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#47
#47
There will be an uproar regardless. I'm glad he is getting a trial. He has the right to a fair trial, whether he is guilty or not. Though I think there should be limitation on public access during the proceedings. The media has already done an effective job of manipulating this case before it's been properly presented, IMO.
 
#49
#49
Georgia Peach said:
There will be an uproar regardless. I'm glad he is getting a trial. He has the right to a fair trial, whether he is guilty or not. Though I think there should be limitation on public access during the proceedings. The media has already done an effective job of manipulating this case before it's been properly presented, IMO.
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The uproar if found not guilty will likely be violent.
 
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#50
#50
GAVol said:
Me too. If the arrest itself wasn't already caving to public pressure, going for Murder 2 certainly is.
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I wonder how much of that is from public pressure and how much of it is from Eric Holder. There's no telling what kind of strong-armed tactics he's using to get Zimmerman to face (trumped-up) charges.
 
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